5 ms·

people would be able to select with more confidence that their children with someone would come out the way they like. In other words, a eugenics profile. Why

people would be able to select with more confidence that their children with someone would come out the way they like. In other words, a eugenics profile. Why stop at dating apps? You could put the data mortgage applications, insurance profiles, and more. I can imagine some of the conversations wouldn't be too far off this: "I love you, but with a 22% chance of our kids having brown eyes and a 56% chance of high cholesterol, I have to end the relationship." "The bank denied the application, because you're at a higher risk for a myocardial infarction by the age of 50." "My car insurance rates will go through the roof if I put you on my policy because you're genetically predisposed to drive more aggressively than me."

matte_black 9y ago
I imagine you’re trying to illustrate a problem, but the solution is very simple: You simply implement government regulations that allow for cut offs so that people born way before the eugenics era aren’t disadvantaged unfairly. You could even have the cutoffs occur in phases, such that more recently born children have more scrutiny compared to ones born in the previous generation.
wiz21c 9y ago
We need many more examples like those ! Thx !
cm2187 9y ago
But doesn't that eugenics happen naturally already? Like people of similar race, centers of interest, character or intelligence having a higher likelihood to form a couple and if DNA has anything to do with these characters, re-enforce these traits in their children? All that will change is that people will be aware of it.
- matte_black 9y ago
  Agreed, people like to pretend eugenics doesn’t happen for whatever reason, but people aren’t just breeding randomly or fairly. They are consciously selecting partners based on traits they like, essentially genes. We have been OK with this for a long time.
  - iovrthoughtthis 9y ago
    We're sort of reducing evolution to a hill climbing algorithm then if we only start taking into account genetics (which, being easier and faster to measure we probably will). To overcome local minima though you need large sources of perturbation while looking for solutions to approximate anything close to a "global minima". Evolution also automatically focuses it's attention on traits that survive better as the environment changes. Will our assessments continually assess the environment and make changes based on that? Can that ever be truly representative of gene expression that is definitely better for survival? So long as there is constant conflict around this and one side doesn't outright win, I'm ok with it tbh.
    - matte_black 9y ago
      The struggle of humans today is mostly social survival, not survival in nature. Evolution is not optimal for social fitness because societal factors change much more rapidly than what natural selection alone can respond to. There may be some conflict over this at first, but humans born in a post-eugenics era will not share your view and will likely dismiss it.
      - JumpCrisscross 9y ago
        > Evolution is not optimal for social fitness because societal factors change much more rapidly than what natural selection alone can respond to This sounds like a reasonable hypothesis. Any sources?
        matte_black 9y ago
        No. Propose an experiment to be done?
        JumpCrisscross 9y ago
        This question has been pondered for a long time [1]. TL; DR Nothing about evolution precludes it from selecting for social fitness. [1] http://joelvelasco.net/teaching/167win10/Hamilton64b-thegeneticalevolutionofsocialbehavior.pdf http://joelvelasco.net/teaching/167win10/Hamilton64b-thegene...
- faitswulff 9y ago
  No, not really. Eugenics includes ideas like forced sterilization of "undesirables." I doubt you're advocating for that. You could argue that the opposite of what you describe is happening. health tech means that many selective forces like congenital diseases and birth defects have less of an effect. Online dating also seems to have increased interracial dating. What _is_ happening and has scary ramifications for society is called assortative mating, which normally happens along educational and financial lines: https://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21595972-how-sexual-equality-increases-gap-between-rich-and-poor-households-sex-brains-and https://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21595972-how-se...
  - rayiner 9y ago
    Assortive mating is just mating. Mating has always been based on fitness; the metrics are just now changing.
  - colmvp 9y ago
    > Online dating also seems to have increased interracial dating. Anecdotal but as an Asian male this hasn’t been the case for me at all. I posted my stats on HN a few months ago but from thousands of profile interactions I’ve had practically zero mutual interest from non-Asians. That’s not an exaggeration either, I literally have a zero percent approval rate from white women, the majority ethnicity in my current city. Every single Asian male friend that I know of didn’t meet their non-Asian SO online dating, but met them in person from work/school/group events. Likewise, every non-Asian female I’ve ever dated I met offline first.
    - faitswulff 9y ago
      Since I'm also a straight Asian male, I can empathize: https://www.npr.org/2018/01/09/575352051/least-desirable-how-racial-discrimination-plays-out-in-online-dating https://www.npr.org/2018/01/09/575352051/least-desirable-how... When I was dating, it seemed like anyone interested in me was either an otaku or a weeaboo :p However, the data regarding interracial dating says otherwise: https://www.technologyreview.com/s/609091/first-evidence-that-online-dating-is-changing-the-nature-of-society/ https://www.technologyreview.com/s/609091/first-evidence-tha... Note that the future may not have arrived in all places equally at the same time.
hycaria 9y ago
Yes we should definitely prohibit anything that could help having a healthier population, by for an example eradicating genetic diseases.
- phkahler 9y ago
  GATICA
  - hycaria 9y ago
    Works reasonably well in pure breed pets and production animals.
    - seren 9y ago
      Purebred are notorious for having plenty of health issues. see for example : https://www.petmd.com/dog/care/evr_dg_purebred_dogs_complications# https://www.petmd.com/dog/care/evr_dg_purebred_dogs_complica...
      - hycaria 9y ago
        Yes, that's exactly my point. For maybe ten years there has been huge efforts thanks to genetic diagnosis to promote health with esthetic standard. Serious breeders test their reproducers against the common diseases in their breed and so on. It works rather well. As for production animals it has been going on for even longer, especially in cattle. And we've got good perfomance there too on mesurable metrics.
      - matte_black 9y ago
        This happens if you just breed pure breds blindly and pay no attention to the underlying genes. We could do the same with humans, if two people want to have a child but have high risk genes, it would be cruel and irresponsible to conceive a child, perhaps even criminal. No child should have to endure a lifetime of suffering with a bad quality of life under a crippling genetic disease because of their parents ignorance or apathy. But of course, we have Anti-Vaxxers and whatnot in this world so maybe some people will just do it on purpose anyway because it’s “the natural way”. Sickening.

matte_black 9y ago

I imagine you’re trying to illustrate a problem, but the solution is very simple: You simply implement government regulations that allow for cut offs so that people born way before the eugenics era aren’t disadvantaged unfairly. You could even have the cutoffs occur in phases, such that more recently born children have more scrutiny compared to ones born in the previous generation.

wiz21c 9y ago

We need many more examples like those ! Thx !

cm2187 9y ago

But doesn't that eugenics happen naturally already? Like people of similar race, centers of interest, character or intelligence having a higher likelihood to form a couple and if DNA has anything to do with these characters, re-enforce these traits in their children? All that will change is that people will be aware of it.

matte_black 9y ago
Agreed, people like to pretend eugenics doesn’t happen for whatever reason, but people aren’t just breeding randomly or fairly. They are consciously selecting partners based on traits they like, essentially genes. We have been OK with this for a long time.
- iovrthoughtthis 9y ago
  We're sort of reducing evolution to a hill climbing algorithm then if we only start taking into account genetics (which, being easier and faster to measure we probably will). To overcome local minima though you need large sources of perturbation while looking for solutions to approximate anything close to a "global minima". Evolution also automatically focuses it's attention on traits that survive better as the environment changes. Will our assessments continually assess the environment and make changes based on that? Can that ever be truly representative of gene expression that is definitely better for survival? So long as there is constant conflict around this and one side doesn't outright win, I'm ok with it tbh.
  - matte_black 9y ago
    The struggle of humans today is mostly social survival, not survival in nature. Evolution is not optimal for social fitness because societal factors change much more rapidly than what natural selection alone can respond to. There may be some conflict over this at first, but humans born in a post-eugenics era will not share your view and will likely dismiss it.
    - JumpCrisscross 9y ago
      > Evolution is not optimal for social fitness because societal factors change much more rapidly than what natural selection alone can respond to This sounds like a reasonable hypothesis. Any sources?
      - matte_black 9y ago
        No. Propose an experiment to be done?
        JumpCrisscross 9y ago
        This question has been pondered for a long time [1]. TL; DR Nothing about evolution precludes it from selecting for social fitness. [1] http://joelvelasco.net/teaching/167win10/Hamilton64b-thegeneticalevolutionofsocialbehavior.pdf http://joelvelasco.net/teaching/167win10/Hamilton64b-thegene...
faitswulff 9y ago
No, not really. Eugenics includes ideas like forced sterilization of "undesirables." I doubt you're advocating for that. You could argue that the opposite of what you describe is happening. health tech means that many selective forces like congenital diseases and birth defects have less of an effect. Online dating also seems to have increased interracial dating. What _is_ happening and has scary ramifications for society is called assortative mating, which normally happens along educational and financial lines: https://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21595972-how-sexual-equality-increases-gap-between-rich-and-poor-households-sex-brains-and https://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21595972-how-se...
- rayiner 9y ago
  Assortive mating is just mating. Mating has always been based on fitness; the metrics are just now changing.
- colmvp 9y ago
  > Online dating also seems to have increased interracial dating. Anecdotal but as an Asian male this hasn’t been the case for me at all. I posted my stats on HN a few months ago but from thousands of profile interactions I’ve had practically zero mutual interest from non-Asians. That’s not an exaggeration either, I literally have a zero percent approval rate from white women, the majority ethnicity in my current city. Every single Asian male friend that I know of didn’t meet their non-Asian SO online dating, but met them in person from work/school/group events. Likewise, every non-Asian female I’ve ever dated I met offline first.
  - faitswulff 9y ago
    Since I'm also a straight Asian male, I can empathize: https://www.npr.org/2018/01/09/575352051/least-desirable-how-racial-discrimination-plays-out-in-online-dating https://www.npr.org/2018/01/09/575352051/least-desirable-how... When I was dating, it seemed like anyone interested in me was either an otaku or a weeaboo :p However, the data regarding interracial dating says otherwise: https://www.technologyreview.com/s/609091/first-evidence-that-online-dating-is-changing-the-nature-of-society/ https://www.technologyreview.com/s/609091/first-evidence-tha... Note that the future may not have arrived in all places equally at the same time.

hycaria 9y ago

Yes we should definitely prohibit anything that could help having a healthier population, by for an example eradicating genetic diseases.

phkahler 9y ago
GATICA
- hycaria 9y ago
  Works reasonably well in pure breed pets and production animals.
  - seren 9y ago
    Purebred are notorious for having plenty of health issues. see for example : https://www.petmd.com/dog/care/evr_dg_purebred_dogs_complications# https://www.petmd.com/dog/care/evr_dg_purebred_dogs_complica...
    - hycaria 9y ago
      Yes, that's exactly my point. For maybe ten years there has been huge efforts thanks to genetic diagnosis to promote health with esthetic standard. Serious breeders test their reproducers against the common diseases in their breed and so on. It works rather well. As for production animals it has been going on for even longer, especially in cattle. And we've got good perfomance there too on mesurable metrics.
    - matte_black 9y ago
      This happens if you just breed pure breds blindly and pay no attention to the underlying genes. We could do the same with humans, if two people want to have a child but have high risk genes, it would be cruel and irresponsible to conceive a child, perhaps even criminal. No child should have to endure a lifetime of suffering with a bad quality of life under a crippling genetic disease because of their parents ignorance or apathy. But of course, we have Anti-Vaxxers and whatnot in this world so maybe some people will just do it on purpose anyway because it’s “the natural way”. Sickening.