5 ms·

I had a conversation with a guy creating a crypto startup recently. It only took five minutes in before the thin veneer of an actual business model fell away an

I had a conversation with a guy creating a crypto startup recently. It only took five minutes in before the thin veneer of an actual business model fell away and the real motive—free money—starting coming out. His position, distilled: if people are stupid enough to give me money, who am I to say no? I suggested his easy money might not be so easy if (for US investors) the SEC, FTC, CFTC, etc. crack down and claw back investor money. Maybe that's fine if you've become hugely profitable in that time, but if you haven't...

dingo_bat 9y ago
I agree with your friend. Dumb people will give away their money anyway. Might as well give it to me. What's wrong with free money as long as I'm not doing illegal stuff.
- alex_hitchins 9y ago
  Morals, ethics?
  - roymurdock 9y ago
    If investors are giving money based on lies, there’s a legal system in place to help them recover failed fraudulent investments. I’d wager in many cases investors know exactly what they’re investing in. So I don’t see any ethical/moral conflicts in a lot of these BS cryptocurrency schemes, just a lot of wasted potential and a somewhat shameful divergence from the idealistic core tech - private, trustless transactions through a decentralized blockchain (bitcoin).
    - alex_hitchins 9y ago
      Stunned by that comment. Stunned.
      - appleflaxen 9y ago
        .
        alex_hitchins 9y ago
        It is genuine, I appreciate your comments though. The comment I found depressing as it highlights (to me at least) the erosion of what was a community/culture I respected. Perhaps I'm just an old fool. EDIT : Just to say I've ensured my email is in my bio now.
      - roymurdock 9y ago
        I almost didn’t write it and knew I’d be downvoted. Many folk that hang around HN are very idealistic myself included. My main point is that you shouldn’t feel sorry for cryptocurrency investors; many know exactly what they’re gambling on. Easy money and BS “tech innovation” being used to grab portions of that cash pile is the reality I see. What’s your opinion of the mkt?
        IntronExon 9y ago
        Choosing not to be a completely unethical scumbag isn’t idealism, it’s the baseline.
        roymurdock 9y ago
        It’s not the baseline in cryptocurrency, and my point is both the ICOing companies and investors are in on the game so nobody is fooling one another. I don’t have the stomach to spew BS for money so I’m not involved in the ecosystem. But I think you need to be a bit more realistic and not view investors as just a class of people that are being ripped off - most, especially bigger/institutional are savvy with their money.
        sangnoir 9y ago
        > My main point is that you shouldn’t feel sorry for cryptocurrency investors; many know exactly what they’re gambling on. This category is broader than you imagine and now includes unsophisticated individuals who can't tell the difference between the blockchain and a bike chain. Lately, I've been hearing a lot of "invest in bitcoin" talk from people who are not well-informed, and do not know what they are gambling on. What's illegal for penny stocks should be equally illegal for cryptocurrency - the Feds should crack the whip.
- infimum 9y ago
  probably because being legal is not a sufficient condition for being ethical
JumpCrisscross 9y ago
> if (for US investors) the SEC, FTC, CFTC, etc. crack down and claw back investor money A counter argument I saw first on Hacker News and then in real life approximates “decentralised currencies make it impossible for governments to enforce laws.” (Obviously wrong, shockingly so, but appears to be a meme in the crypto community.)
- rando444 9y ago
  And in a similar vein the "we no longer need to pay taxes" crowd. These idiots don't realize they're the ones begging the regulators to crush their dreams and bury them in paperwork, fines, fees, and red tape.
phil21 9y ago
It reminds me very much of 1998/1999. 9 out of 10 "startups" at that point were outright scams and they barely even tried to hide it. Same goes for the crypto space these days. It was sad to watch in tech 20 years ago, and sad to watch now.

dingo_bat 9y ago

I agree with your friend. Dumb people will give away their money anyway. Might as well give it to me. What's wrong with free money as long as I'm not doing illegal stuff.

alex_hitchins 9y ago
Morals, ethics?
- roymurdock 9y ago
  If investors are giving money based on lies, there’s a legal system in place to help them recover failed fraudulent investments. I’d wager in many cases investors know exactly what they’re investing in. So I don’t see any ethical/moral conflicts in a lot of these BS cryptocurrency schemes, just a lot of wasted potential and a somewhat shameful divergence from the idealistic core tech - private, trustless transactions through a decentralized blockchain (bitcoin).
  - alex_hitchins 9y ago
    Stunned by that comment. Stunned.
    - appleflaxen 9y ago
      .
      - alex_hitchins 9y ago
        It is genuine, I appreciate your comments though. The comment I found depressing as it highlights (to me at least) the erosion of what was a community/culture I respected. Perhaps I'm just an old fool. EDIT : Just to say I've ensured my email is in my bio now.
    - roymurdock 9y ago
      I almost didn’t write it and knew I’d be downvoted. Many folk that hang around HN are very idealistic myself included. My main point is that you shouldn’t feel sorry for cryptocurrency investors; many know exactly what they’re gambling on. Easy money and BS “tech innovation” being used to grab portions of that cash pile is the reality I see. What’s your opinion of the mkt?
      - IntronExon 9y ago
        Choosing not to be a completely unethical scumbag isn’t idealism, it’s the baseline.
        roymurdock 9y ago
        It’s not the baseline in cryptocurrency, and my point is both the ICOing companies and investors are in on the game so nobody is fooling one another. I don’t have the stomach to spew BS for money so I’m not involved in the ecosystem. But I think you need to be a bit more realistic and not view investors as just a class of people that are being ripped off - most, especially bigger/institutional are savvy with their money.
      - sangnoir 9y ago
        > My main point is that you shouldn’t feel sorry for cryptocurrency investors; many know exactly what they’re gambling on. This category is broader than you imagine and now includes unsophisticated individuals who can't tell the difference between the blockchain and a bike chain. Lately, I've been hearing a lot of "invest in bitcoin" talk from people who are not well-informed, and do not know what they are gambling on. What's illegal for penny stocks should be equally illegal for cryptocurrency - the Feds should crack the whip.
infimum 9y ago
probably because being legal is not a sufficient condition for being ethical

JumpCrisscross 9y ago

> if (for US investors) the SEC, FTC, CFTC, etc. crack down and claw back investor money A counter argument I saw first on Hacker News and then in real life approximates “decentralised currencies make it impossible for governments to enforce laws.” (Obviously wrong, shockingly so, but appears to be a meme in the crypto community.)

rando444 9y ago
And in a similar vein the "we no longer need to pay taxes" crowd. These idiots don't realize they're the ones begging the regulators to crush their dreams and bury them in paperwork, fines, fees, and red tape.

phil21 9y ago

It reminds me very much of 1998/1999. 9 out of 10 "startups" at that point were outright scams and they barely even tried to hide it. Same goes for the crypto space these days. It was sad to watch in tech 20 years ago, and sad to watch now.