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Sure, that's a good point especially considering he's a one-man show so it probably makes sense to keep the user base as ruthlessly small as possible just for s

Sure, that's a good point especially considering he's a one-man show so it probably makes sense to keep the user base as ruthlessly small as possible just for support reasons alone. It does make me curious though who the target customer is - somebody who's comfortable setting up a Unix CLI tool for their backups (creating a cron job etc.), yet who wants to cede bucket ownership to a 3rd party and pay a 25x markup for the pleasure? I personally don't mind having to click "Create Bucket" in the AWS console if I get to pay $3/mo instead of $75/mo on my 300GB of data. shrugs

tomkarlo 9y ago
If that customer exists - they sound like a great customer. $75 a month might be too expensive for your needs, but it's certainly not a ton of money if someone believes that product is the right fit for them.
zeroxfe 9y ago
But Tarsnap is much more than that -- it deduplicates, it encrypts, it has settings for restricting network, memory, and CPU usage, it caches and checkpoints, etc. I'm happy to pay the premium for the robustness I get from it.
- ad_hominem 9y ago
  Glad you're happy with it. I went with BorgBackup which I'm also happy with. AFAIK it also does dedupe, encrypt, checkpointing, and can throttle upload speed (don't know about the rest).
  - MarkMc 9y ago
    One of the things I value about Tarsnap is that I can set a permission which does not allow data to be deleted. That is, if a hacker somehow gains access to my server, she cannot delete all the existing backups. More generally, I suspect you are underestimating the number of people who tick one or more of these boxes: (a) Impressed by Colin's security chops and the security focus of Tarsnap such as its Bug Bounty program; (b) Have never heard of BorgBackup; (c) Value customer support; (d) Are worried that an open-source project would not be maintained and prefer a vendor whose livelihood depends on the product (d) Have experience with Tarsnap on previous projects; (e) Only need to store 20 Gb and for whom saving $5 per month is unimportant; (f) Have revenue in the millions and for whom $75 per month is a rounding error. Even if there were no such people and Tarsnap's new user growth was zero, it might still make sense for Colin to triple the price of Tarsnap in order to maximise the income from existing users.
    - ad_hominem 9y ago
      > ... I can set a permission which does not allow data to be deleted. That is, if a hacker somehow gains access to my server, she cannot delete all the existing backups. With GCP/AWS, you can copy and paste a bucket ACL that only allows PUT operations, and enable versioning to ensure nothing can ever be deleted by overwrites. With tarsnap there is one person who can delete all your existing backups - Colin, because he owns the bucket. And he will for sure within 7 days of your account falling below a $0 balance.[1] That might be a feature in case you got killed in a car accident and you want some secret to be buried forever. But for me, I'm archiving my family photos/videos and I'd rather AWS keep charging my account and keep my data alive until my estate can sort out my digital data, which could take months. > it might still make sense for Colin to triple the price of Tarsnap in order to maximise the income from existing users And there's the rub. I don't like the idea of somebody holding my data hostage. I'll gladly contribute to a Patreon if an open source developer needs recurring support. [1]: https://www.tarsnap.com/faq.html#out-of-money https://www.tarsnap.com/faq.html#out-of-money
      - dx034 9y ago
        To be fair, GCP/AWS also don't have unlimited grace periods if you fail to pay. At some point everyone deletes. That's why you should always have two backups with different providers using different credit cards. A blocked credit card has led to failed businesses in the past.
        ad_hominem 9y ago
        Right, didn't mean to imply they didn't. But the differences are that Tarsnap is pre-pay[1], while AWS/GCP automatically debit your card. How many people have several months, or a year, of runway on their Tarsnap account balance? Meanwhile, there have been cases of people being dead for years[2] with their auto-pay agreements keeping everything humming along while they rot. Keep in mind that recurring payment agreements often aren't cancelled when a credit card number or expiration date changes.[3] Finally, AWS will give you about five months of unpaid bills before they suspend your account and delete your data.[4] I would assume GCP has a similar policy. [1]: https://www.tarsnap.com/legal-why.html#PAYMENTINADVANCE https://www.tarsnap.com/legal-why.html#PAYMENTINADVANCE [2]: https://www.cnn.com/2014/03/07/us/michigan-mummified-body-found/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2014/03/07/us/michigan-mummified-body-fo... [3]: https://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/card-updater-services-auto-pay-1585.php https://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/card-updater-se... [4]: https://www.quora.com/What-happens-after-AWS-suspend-an-account-due-to-non-payment-of-the-bill https://www.quora.com/What-happens-after-AWS-suspend-an-acco...
- vsl 9y ago
  And let’s not forget and Tarsnap is still dirt cheap even then, because Colin refuses to charge more. I’d happily pay something reasonable for my backing needs, like a $30 or $50 monthly minimum on tiny sets; instead, I pay I don’t know, something like $10 every year or two.
  - comex 9y ago
    What you're saying is that it's dirt cheap if you have a small amount of data. On the other hand, if for whatever reason you need to back up, say, 1TB worth of video files, it's extraordinarily expensive. I think it's just the wrong pricing model to have a flat rate per gigabyte. A flat rate looks simple, but far from being transparent or 'honest', it's essentially arbitrary in this case. Other than backend storage, Tarsnap's main non-fixed cost is Colin's time providing support - but that scales mainly with the number of customers, barely at all with the amount of data they're using. Thus, heavy data users are effectively subsidizing light data users, who pay far less than their 'fair share' of costs.
    - dspillett 9y ago
      > it's dirt cheap X. On the other hand, for Y, it's extraordinarily expensive. This may be intentional. Not every service tries to provide an optimal solution for every use case. > it's just the wrong pricing model to have a flat rate per gigabyte. I have no axe to grind (I'm not associated with tarsnap in any way, I'm not even a user though I have considered it) but some of the discussion here makes people sound somewhat entitled: "I want X, and I don't want to pay more then $Y for it, and any service charging more is silly/bad/ripoff". Stating that something ins't the best choice (or even a good choice) in some (or many) circumstances is fine, but "it is wrong for me so I don't see how anyone can think that it is right" is an irritating stance. The pricing model seems to work for plenty of users, enough that it works for the service as it has been successfully running for some time. If you think he is missing out on a huge amount of money from the users who are put off, why not start your own service priced to be attractive to that userbase, and take the profit you see that service as giving away. > providing support - but that scales mainly with the number of customers, barely at all with the amount of data Sometimes having lots of small customers works better than having a few large ones, even if you have a few large ones and lots of small ones. With large customers you are sometimes beholden to their whims at the expense of the smaller majority (or they expect you to be beholden to their whims and get difficult if you refuse!). > but far from being transparent or 'honest', it's essentially arbitrary Being arbitrary in no way precludes being transparent or honest. > heavy data users are effectively subsidizing light data users Only if they don't go elsewhere, which they are perfectly free to do. tarsnap is not in a monopoly position such that people are effectively forced to use it. (I'm not intending to pick on you specifically, there are other comments I could have responded similarly to, but this post just happened to be the one that tipped the balance on my rant reflex!)
- tomaskafka 9y ago
  Yes, but I can pay $50 once for Arq Backup, which will let me do this with any (= cheapest) data store - currently Backblaze B2, paying cca $5/mo for 500 GB from all computers at home. This is a danger for Tarsnap.
  - icebraining 9y ago
    Arq doesn't run on Linux or the BSDs, though.

tomkarlo 9y ago

If that customer exists - they sound like a great customer. $75 a month might be too expensive for your needs, but it's certainly not a ton of money if someone believes that product is the right fit for them.

zeroxfe 9y ago

But Tarsnap is much more than that -- it deduplicates, it encrypts, it has settings for restricting network, memory, and CPU usage, it caches and checkpoints, etc. I'm happy to pay the premium for the robustness I get from it.

ad_hominem 9y ago
Glad you're happy with it. I went with BorgBackup which I'm also happy with. AFAIK it also does dedupe, encrypt, checkpointing, and can throttle upload speed (don't know about the rest).
- MarkMc 9y ago
  One of the things I value about Tarsnap is that I can set a permission which does not allow data to be deleted. That is, if a hacker somehow gains access to my server, she cannot delete all the existing backups. More generally, I suspect you are underestimating the number of people who tick one or more of these boxes: (a) Impressed by Colin's security chops and the security focus of Tarsnap such as its Bug Bounty program; (b) Have never heard of BorgBackup; (c) Value customer support; (d) Are worried that an open-source project would not be maintained and prefer a vendor whose livelihood depends on the product (d) Have experience with Tarsnap on previous projects; (e) Only need to store 20 Gb and for whom saving $5 per month is unimportant; (f) Have revenue in the millions and for whom $75 per month is a rounding error. Even if there were no such people and Tarsnap's new user growth was zero, it might still make sense for Colin to triple the price of Tarsnap in order to maximise the income from existing users.
  - ad_hominem 9y ago
    > ... I can set a permission which does not allow data to be deleted. That is, if a hacker somehow gains access to my server, she cannot delete all the existing backups. With GCP/AWS, you can copy and paste a bucket ACL that only allows PUT operations, and enable versioning to ensure nothing can ever be deleted by overwrites. With tarsnap there is one person who can delete all your existing backups - Colin, because he owns the bucket. And he will for sure within 7 days of your account falling below a $0 balance.[1] That might be a feature in case you got killed in a car accident and you want some secret to be buried forever. But for me, I'm archiving my family photos/videos and I'd rather AWS keep charging my account and keep my data alive until my estate can sort out my digital data, which could take months. > it might still make sense for Colin to triple the price of Tarsnap in order to maximise the income from existing users And there's the rub. I don't like the idea of somebody holding my data hostage. I'll gladly contribute to a Patreon if an open source developer needs recurring support. [1]: https://www.tarsnap.com/faq.html#out-of-money https://www.tarsnap.com/faq.html#out-of-money
    - dx034 9y ago
      To be fair, GCP/AWS also don't have unlimited grace periods if you fail to pay. At some point everyone deletes. That's why you should always have two backups with different providers using different credit cards. A blocked credit card has led to failed businesses in the past.
      - ad_hominem 9y ago
        Right, didn't mean to imply they didn't. But the differences are that Tarsnap is pre-pay[1], while AWS/GCP automatically debit your card. How many people have several months, or a year, of runway on their Tarsnap account balance? Meanwhile, there have been cases of people being dead for years[2] with their auto-pay agreements keeping everything humming along while they rot. Keep in mind that recurring payment agreements often aren't cancelled when a credit card number or expiration date changes.[3] Finally, AWS will give you about five months of unpaid bills before they suspend your account and delete your data.[4] I would assume GCP has a similar policy. [1]: https://www.tarsnap.com/legal-why.html#PAYMENTINADVANCE https://www.tarsnap.com/legal-why.html#PAYMENTINADVANCE [2]: https://www.cnn.com/2014/03/07/us/michigan-mummified-body-found/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2014/03/07/us/michigan-mummified-body-fo... [3]: https://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/card-updater-services-auto-pay-1585.php https://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/card-updater-se... [4]: https://www.quora.com/What-happens-after-AWS-suspend-an-account-due-to-non-payment-of-the-bill https://www.quora.com/What-happens-after-AWS-suspend-an-acco...
vsl 9y ago
And let’s not forget and Tarsnap is still dirt cheap even then, because Colin refuses to charge more. I’d happily pay something reasonable for my backing needs, like a $30 or $50 monthly minimum on tiny sets; instead, I pay I don’t know, something like $10 every year or two.
- comex 9y ago
  What you're saying is that it's dirt cheap if you have a small amount of data. On the other hand, if for whatever reason you need to back up, say, 1TB worth of video files, it's extraordinarily expensive. I think it's just the wrong pricing model to have a flat rate per gigabyte. A flat rate looks simple, but far from being transparent or 'honest', it's essentially arbitrary in this case. Other than backend storage, Tarsnap's main non-fixed cost is Colin's time providing support - but that scales mainly with the number of customers, barely at all with the amount of data they're using. Thus, heavy data users are effectively subsidizing light data users, who pay far less than their 'fair share' of costs.
  - dspillett 9y ago
    > it's dirt cheap X. On the other hand, for Y, it's extraordinarily expensive. This may be intentional. Not every service tries to provide an optimal solution for every use case. > it's just the wrong pricing model to have a flat rate per gigabyte. I have no axe to grind (I'm not associated with tarsnap in any way, I'm not even a user though I have considered it) but some of the discussion here makes people sound somewhat entitled: "I want X, and I don't want to pay more then $Y for it, and any service charging more is silly/bad/ripoff". Stating that something ins't the best choice (or even a good choice) in some (or many) circumstances is fine, but "it is wrong for me so I don't see how anyone can think that it is right" is an irritating stance. The pricing model seems to work for plenty of users, enough that it works for the service as it has been successfully running for some time. If you think he is missing out on a huge amount of money from the users who are put off, why not start your own service priced to be attractive to that userbase, and take the profit you see that service as giving away. > providing support - but that scales mainly with the number of customers, barely at all with the amount of data Sometimes having lots of small customers works better than having a few large ones, even if you have a few large ones and lots of small ones. With large customers you are sometimes beholden to their whims at the expense of the smaller majority (or they expect you to be beholden to their whims and get difficult if you refuse!). > but far from being transparent or 'honest', it's essentially arbitrary Being arbitrary in no way precludes being transparent or honest. > heavy data users are effectively subsidizing light data users Only if they don't go elsewhere, which they are perfectly free to do. tarsnap is not in a monopoly position such that people are effectively forced to use it. (I'm not intending to pick on you specifically, there are other comments I could have responded similarly to, but this post just happened to be the one that tipped the balance on my rant reflex!)
tomaskafka 9y ago
Yes, but I can pay $50 once for Arq Backup, which will let me do this with any (= cheapest) data store - currently Backblaze B2, paying cca $5/mo for 500 GB from all computers at home. This is a danger for Tarsnap.
- icebraining 9y ago
  Arq doesn't run on Linux or the BSDs, though.