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absolutely. this is both liberal and libertarian. it's a massive social justice issue. it's also a policy-failure that can be addressed by simply reducing regul

absolutely. this is both liberal and libertarian. it's a massive social justice issue. it's also a policy-failure that can be addressed by simply reducing regulations, which this bill does (by preventing local governments from banning density near public transit, the exact place it needs to go).

rsync 9y ago
"absolutely. this is both liberal and libertarian" ... but not necessarily democratic. I am open minded about the housing policy debate in CA (and in Marin, where I live) but I am dismayed at the rejection of democratic outcomes when those outcomes are found to be inconvenient.
- TheCoelacanth 9y ago
  CA is also a democracy, so it's just one democratic outcome overriding a different democratic outcome.
  - sokoloff 9y ago
    Two wolves and one sheep can also have a vote about what's for dinner and the outcome be democratic. I don't know why people in San Diego or NorCal should have a vote about what happens with respect to zoning in Palo Alto or Mountain View. Why not let people in Butte, Montana put in their vote as well?
    - wwgg715 9y ago
      Does Broadmoor have a right to override Daly City? Or Piedmont, Oakland? Both are donut holes within larger cities. Rich neighborhoods protecting their interests against those of the community. Local governments in CA are convoluted and corrupt. Have a committee of experts draw the lines based on actual geography and common sense, and then we can let them decide what is right for their own “communities”
    - manfredo 9y ago
      Because housing availability seriously impacts economic and social mobility. It's hard to work one's way out of poverty as it is. It's even harder when the cities with the Lion's share of the jobs hardly build any housing and cause rents to skyrocket as a result. > I don't know why people in San Diego or NorCal should have a vote about what happens with respect to zoning in Palo Alto or Mountain View. Why not let people in Butte, Montana put in their vote as well? I'd be totally okay with nation wide housing policies (and I have lived in one of those cities you mentioned, and I currently live in Silicon Valley so I'd be impacted by this change). I think poor housing policies are big drivers of economic immobility, and people everywhere in the country are affected by it. Someone in Montana may not live in San Francisco, but if they have to turn down a job in SF due to insane rents then they are impacted by SF's housing policies. Consequently, if there was a push to ban nativist policies like rent control, proposition 13, or other barriers in the housing market nation wide I would both think it is fair and I'd support it.
      - sokoloff 9y ago
        Your last sentence struck an interesting chord of agreement-and-disagreement with me. I also oppose rent control and ill-considered tax controls like Prop13, because I think the downsides for communities far exceed the upsides in both cases. That means I would consistently vote against them in my own community, but I still support the rights of people in other communities to make choices different than my own. If they prefer the outcomes under rent control or Prop-13 type initiatives, who am I to say that they're wrong for their own community? Of course I can have an opinion that they're wrong, but I'd rather not force them to comply with my opinion over their own and their neighbors'. Side note: the reason I don't live in Silicon Valley right now is that when I went interviewing out there and had job offers from two companies at a healthy increase over my then-salary, neither would allow me to afford to purchase a comparable level of housing and lifestyle to what I have out here. That was in 1998 or 1999.
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
        nerfhammer 9y ago
    - closeparen 9y ago
      Americans are Constitutionally entitled to the equal protection of the laws everywhere in America. Cities are not sovereign nations. They don't get to control migration or treat natives preferentially. While it's nice to govern as locally as possible as a matter of general principle, when cities are hoarding wealth and opportunity and dumping the downside on the larger community, the larger community is right to reconsider the limits of the authority it delegated. Part of what it means to be in the State of California (or the United States of America) is accepting migration from, and influence by, others in that category.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
  - rsync 9y ago
    "CA is also a democracy, so it's just one democratic outcome overriding a different democratic outcome." So, then, is the United States. Would someone like to bet me that there is nearly 1:1 mapping between (people who think CA should undermine local control over housing) and (people who think CA should exert local control over marijuana policy) ? Of course that's true. Now defend the principle, and benefits, of local control in some spheres where it's convenient but not in other spheres where it is not.
    - krausejj 9y ago
      It has to be a balance. Throughout history, different levels of governments have stepped in to correct an injustice. The Civil Rights Act was one example; California not enforcing certain immigration rules is another example, in the other direction. It doesn't matter whether the decision is coming from a democratic government above or a democratic government below; what matters is doing the right thing.
- aaronbwebber 9y ago
  Why do you value democracy? My answer would be because democracy realizes liberal* ideas in a political process. But if liberal processes lead to illiberal outcomes, what do you do? I don't think you can argue that the past ~40 years of housing policy in California have produced liberal outcomes - there's been an immense concentration of wealth, particularly in property, displacement of underprivileged communities, exorbitant housing costs for many people, and hugely negative environmental impacts. I'm willing to sacrifice liberal processes to get liberal outcomes. To somewhat invert the meaning of an aphorism, the means do not justify the ends. * to be clear, we're talking about small-l liberal here, not "liberal" as in "left of center" as it is frequently (mis)used.
  - ralusek 9y ago
    If you want to be extra clear, what is "left of center" is not actually liberal at all, and I wish we wouldn't call them that. Liberal values tend to be centered around individual liberties and universal values. Leftist values tend to be centered around communal equality and values of group identity. I would argue that they are political opposites rather than making the case that the far left is just an extreme version of liberalism, because it isn't at all.
davidw 9y ago
Speaking of that, and Glaeser, who wrote that paper you linked to, this piece is pretty good: https://www.brookings.edu/research/reforming-land-use-regulations/ https://www.brookings.edu/research/reforming-land-use-regula... Which comes back to that: "Reforming local land use controls is one of those rare areas in which the libertarian and the progressive agree. The current system restricts the freedom of the property owner, and also makes life harder for poorer Americans. The politics of zoning reform may be hard, but our land use regulations are badly in need of rethinking." Edit: For many more articles, I have a list here: https://bendyimby.com/2017/06/12/yimby-reading/ https://bendyimby.com/2017/06/12/yimby-reading/

rsync 9y ago

"absolutely. this is both liberal and libertarian" ... but not necessarily democratic. I am open minded about the housing policy debate in CA (and in Marin, where I live) but I am dismayed at the rejection of democratic outcomes when those outcomes are found to be inconvenient.

TheCoelacanth 9y ago
CA is also a democracy, so it's just one democratic outcome overriding a different democratic outcome.
- sokoloff 9y ago
  Two wolves and one sheep can also have a vote about what's for dinner and the outcome be democratic. I don't know why people in San Diego or NorCal should have a vote about what happens with respect to zoning in Palo Alto or Mountain View. Why not let people in Butte, Montana put in their vote as well?
  - wwgg715 9y ago
    Does Broadmoor have a right to override Daly City? Or Piedmont, Oakland? Both are donut holes within larger cities. Rich neighborhoods protecting their interests against those of the community. Local governments in CA are convoluted and corrupt. Have a committee of experts draw the lines based on actual geography and common sense, and then we can let them decide what is right for their own “communities”
  - manfredo 9y ago
    Because housing availability seriously impacts economic and social mobility. It's hard to work one's way out of poverty as it is. It's even harder when the cities with the Lion's share of the jobs hardly build any housing and cause rents to skyrocket as a result. > I don't know why people in San Diego or NorCal should have a vote about what happens with respect to zoning in Palo Alto or Mountain View. Why not let people in Butte, Montana put in their vote as well? I'd be totally okay with nation wide housing policies (and I have lived in one of those cities you mentioned, and I currently live in Silicon Valley so I'd be impacted by this change). I think poor housing policies are big drivers of economic immobility, and people everywhere in the country are affected by it. Someone in Montana may not live in San Francisco, but if they have to turn down a job in SF due to insane rents then they are impacted by SF's housing policies. Consequently, if there was a push to ban nativist policies like rent control, proposition 13, or other barriers in the housing market nation wide I would both think it is fair and I'd support it.
    - sokoloff 9y ago
      Your last sentence struck an interesting chord of agreement-and-disagreement with me. I also oppose rent control and ill-considered tax controls like Prop13, because I think the downsides for communities far exceed the upsides in both cases. That means I would consistently vote against them in my own community, but I still support the rights of people in other communities to make choices different than my own. If they prefer the outcomes under rent control or Prop-13 type initiatives, who am I to say that they're wrong for their own community? Of course I can have an opinion that they're wrong, but I'd rather not force them to comply with my opinion over their own and their neighbors'. Side note: the reason I don't live in Silicon Valley right now is that when I went interviewing out there and had job offers from two companies at a healthy increase over my then-salary, neither would allow me to afford to purchase a comparable level of housing and lifestyle to what I have out here. That was in 1998 or 1999.
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
      - nerfhammer 9y ago
  - closeparen 9y ago
    Americans are Constitutionally entitled to the equal protection of the laws everywhere in America. Cities are not sovereign nations. They don't get to control migration or treat natives preferentially. While it's nice to govern as locally as possible as a matter of general principle, when cities are hoarding wealth and opportunity and dumping the downside on the larger community, the larger community is right to reconsider the limits of the authority it delegated. Part of what it means to be in the State of California (or the United States of America) is accepting migration from, and influence by, others in that category.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- rsync 9y ago
  "CA is also a democracy, so it's just one democratic outcome overriding a different democratic outcome." So, then, is the United States. Would someone like to bet me that there is nearly 1:1 mapping between (people who think CA should undermine local control over housing) and (people who think CA should exert local control over marijuana policy) ? Of course that's true. Now defend the principle, and benefits, of local control in some spheres where it's convenient but not in other spheres where it is not.
  - krausejj 9y ago
    It has to be a balance. Throughout history, different levels of governments have stepped in to correct an injustice. The Civil Rights Act was one example; California not enforcing certain immigration rules is another example, in the other direction. It doesn't matter whether the decision is coming from a democratic government above or a democratic government below; what matters is doing the right thing.
aaronbwebber 9y ago
Why do you value democracy? My answer would be because democracy realizes liberal* ideas in a political process. But if liberal processes lead to illiberal outcomes, what do you do? I don't think you can argue that the past ~40 years of housing policy in California have produced liberal outcomes - there's been an immense concentration of wealth, particularly in property, displacement of underprivileged communities, exorbitant housing costs for many people, and hugely negative environmental impacts. I'm willing to sacrifice liberal processes to get liberal outcomes. To somewhat invert the meaning of an aphorism, the means do not justify the ends. * to be clear, we're talking about small-l liberal here, not "liberal" as in "left of center" as it is frequently (mis)used.
- ralusek 9y ago
  If you want to be extra clear, what is "left of center" is not actually liberal at all, and I wish we wouldn't call them that. Liberal values tend to be centered around individual liberties and universal values. Leftist values tend to be centered around communal equality and values of group identity. I would argue that they are political opposites rather than making the case that the far left is just an extreme version of liberalism, because it isn't at all.

davidw 9y ago

Speaking of that, and Glaeser, who wrote that paper you linked to, this piece is pretty good: https://www.brookings.edu/research/reforming-land-use-regulations/ https://www.brookings.edu/research/reforming-land-use-regula... Which comes back to that: "Reforming local land use controls is one of those rare areas in which the libertarian and the progressive agree. The current system restricts the freedom of the property owner, and also makes life harder for poorer Americans. The politics of zoning reform may be hard, but our land use regulations are badly in need of rethinking." Edit: For many more articles, I have a list here: https://bendyimby.com/2017/06/12/yimby-reading/ https://bendyimby.com/2017/06/12/yimby-reading/