5 ms·

Typo there with Chavez? Democratically elected and rose the quality of life of Venezuela.

ilamont 9y ago
Hitler came to power on top of a democratic system, too (IIRC, by leveraging political alliances and grassroots violence in the pre-1933 parliamentary system). He surely improved the quality of life for the Nazi base in the mid-30s after he took power. Didn't stop him from dismantling democratic institutions, eliminating all political rivals, invading his neighbors, and murdering millions of people.
- balthasar 9y ago
  Chavez did none of these things. Is your knowledge of history so shallow that you must bring up Hitler appro to nothing every chance that you get?
  - AnimalMuppet 9y ago
    Chavez definitely dismantled democracy in Venezuela. (If you want to be technical, he started the project, and Maduro finished it.) Specifically, vote count manipulation, the Supreme Court refusing to allow opposition legislatures to be seated, the constitutional committee stripping the legislature of its power... that's dismantling democracy.
    - balthasar 9y ago
      Outside observers never saw or reported voting manipulation during Chavez's time. Your lie is easily disproved with a bit of research and I encourage readers to do so. I'm not familiar with the Court/Constitutional Committee issues that your raise but I assume they are post Chavez.
      - alsetmusic 9y ago
        > Your lie is easily disproved with a bit of research and I encourage readers to do so. When you call someone a liar, the onus is on you to do the research and present your case for others. Asking everyone else to do the research doesn’t cut it. Your position should include citations that provide evidence that what you say is correct. What you have achieved here is essentially name-calling.
        balthasar 9y ago
        An unsubstantiated claim doesn't require a well researched counter. The suggestion to do research is just that a suggestion. I find that when dealing with posts written by people who are uninformed or have the intention of misinformation that it is important to point out that the issue is contested. If someone is lying then a bit of research will prove that and we can all be in agreement. If the subject isn't worth bothering with then my accusation surely can't be bothered with either.
        AnimalMuppet 9y ago
        There is a rather large difference between "your claim is wrong" and "you are lying". Feel free to state that my claim is wrong. If I didn't supply evidence, feel free to state without evidence that my claim is wrong. (Evidence talks louder than non-evidence, though, so if you supply some, that's a better refutation than simply saying that I was wrong.) Saying that someone is lying is different. That's an attack on their character. You should do that very rarely, and only where you are sure. (Even better, only where you can prove that they are deliberately lying. Yes, that's a very high bar. Yes, that's how rarely you should make that charge.)
phyller 9y ago
He might have raised the quality of life temporarily (I'm not sure even about that), but what is happening now in Venezuela was practically inevitable. You might be warmer for a little while as you take apart your house and burn it piece by piece, but in the end you will more assuredly freeze. In my opinion, it was a great tragedy that Chavez is not still alive today. Now people can say ridiculous things like this. If he was alive today, Venezuela would still be collapsing and it would be clear whose fault it was.
- balthasar 9y ago
  Yes. Perhaps it was inevitable. For what reasons though?
  - protoplant 9y ago
    Economists believe that hyperinflations are caused by large persistent government deficits financed primarily by money creation (rather than by borrowing or by increasing taxation). --wikipedia. Eli5 Their economy was mostly oil, they seized assets of oil companies extracting it. People left then oil crashed and they had too many promises to pay for
    - balthasar 9y ago
      Indeed nationalization of national resources as an explanation of economic collapse is something a five year old would say.
      - protoplant 9y ago
        It was not simply that they "nationalized oil" in my example, as the resources we're already state owned. You seem to not be serious with your comments.
        balthasar 9y ago
        Sorry I'm just trying to understand the five year old's argument. "Their economy was mostly oil, they seized assets of oil companies extracting it." Who is "they" in this sentence and how was all this inevitable?
zentiggr 9y ago
Typo there with _rose_ quality of life in Venezuela? Pretty sure we've watched that 'democratic' experiment fail spectacularly, at least what news I know of the economy and living conditions in general seem very poor at best. Failed state comes to mind.
- balthasar 9y ago
  What is the link between Chavez's policies and Venezuela's current economic condition?
  - princekolt 9y ago
    Maduro served both as a Foreign Affairs Minister and as a Vice President under Chavez. He is basically maintaining the government project of Chavez.
  - lovich 9y ago
    What's the link between yesterday and today? Chavez was the previous ruler and hasn't been gone so long that the systems he set up have been washed away by time
    - balthasar 9y ago
      The self exploding system just add water. Really neat innovator this Chavez guy!
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]

Hitler came to power on top of a democratic system, too (IIRC, by leveraging political alliances and grassroots violence in the pre-1933 parliamentary system). He surely improved the quality of life for the Nazi base in the mid-30s after he took power. Didn't stop him from dismantling democratic institutions, eliminating all political rivals, invading his neighbors, and murdering millions of people.

balthasar 9y ago
Chavez did none of these things. Is your knowledge of history so shallow that you must bring up Hitler appro to nothing every chance that you get?
- AnimalMuppet 9y ago
  Chavez definitely dismantled democracy in Venezuela. (If you want to be technical, he started the project, and Maduro finished it.) Specifically, vote count manipulation, the Supreme Court refusing to allow opposition legislatures to be seated, the constitutional committee stripping the legislature of its power... that's dismantling democracy.
  - balthasar 9y ago
    Outside observers never saw or reported voting manipulation during Chavez's time. Your lie is easily disproved with a bit of research and I encourage readers to do so. I'm not familiar with the Court/Constitutional Committee issues that your raise but I assume they are post Chavez.
    - alsetmusic 9y ago
      > Your lie is easily disproved with a bit of research and I encourage readers to do so. When you call someone a liar, the onus is on you to do the research and present your case for others. Asking everyone else to do the research doesn’t cut it. Your position should include citations that provide evidence that what you say is correct. What you have achieved here is essentially name-calling.
      - balthasar 9y ago
        An unsubstantiated claim doesn't require a well researched counter. The suggestion to do research is just that a suggestion. I find that when dealing with posts written by people who are uninformed or have the intention of misinformation that it is important to point out that the issue is contested. If someone is lying then a bit of research will prove that and we can all be in agreement. If the subject isn't worth bothering with then my accusation surely can't be bothered with either.
        AnimalMuppet 9y ago
        There is a rather large difference between "your claim is wrong" and "you are lying". Feel free to state that my claim is wrong. If I didn't supply evidence, feel free to state without evidence that my claim is wrong. (Evidence talks louder than non-evidence, though, so if you supply some, that's a better refutation than simply saying that I was wrong.) Saying that someone is lying is different. That's an attack on their character. You should do that very rarely, and only where you are sure. (Even better, only where you can prove that they are deliberately lying. Yes, that's a very high bar. Yes, that's how rarely you should make that charge.)

phyller 9y ago

He might have raised the quality of life temporarily (I'm not sure even about that), but what is happening now in Venezuela was practically inevitable. You might be warmer for a little while as you take apart your house and burn it piece by piece, but in the end you will more assuredly freeze. In my opinion, it was a great tragedy that Chavez is not still alive today. Now people can say ridiculous things like this. If he was alive today, Venezuela would still be collapsing and it would be clear whose fault it was.

balthasar 9y ago
Yes. Perhaps it was inevitable. For what reasons though?
- protoplant 9y ago
  Economists believe that hyperinflations are caused by large persistent government deficits financed primarily by money creation (rather than by borrowing or by increasing taxation). --wikipedia. Eli5 Their economy was mostly oil, they seized assets of oil companies extracting it. People left then oil crashed and they had too many promises to pay for
  - balthasar 9y ago
    Indeed nationalization of national resources as an explanation of economic collapse is something a five year old would say.
    - protoplant 9y ago
      It was not simply that they "nationalized oil" in my example, as the resources we're already state owned. You seem to not be serious with your comments.
      - balthasar 9y ago
        Sorry I'm just trying to understand the five year old's argument. "Their economy was mostly oil, they seized assets of oil companies extracting it." Who is "they" in this sentence and how was all this inevitable?

zentiggr 9y ago

Typo there with _rose_ quality of life in Venezuela? Pretty sure we've watched that 'democratic' experiment fail spectacularly, at least what news I know of the economy and living conditions in general seem very poor at best. Failed state comes to mind.

balthasar 9y ago
What is the link between Chavez's policies and Venezuela's current economic condition?
- princekolt 9y ago
  Maduro served both as a Foreign Affairs Minister and as a Vice President under Chavez. He is basically maintaining the government project of Chavez.
- lovich 9y ago
  What's the link between yesterday and today? Chavez was the previous ruler and hasn't been gone so long that the systems he set up have been washed away by time
  - balthasar 9y ago
    The self exploding system just add water. Really neat innovator this Chavez guy!
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]