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> I'm pretty sure other fields rely on lawyers to know the relevant legal landscape just like we do. I have plenty of friends and relatives who work in constru

> I'm pretty sure other fields rely on lawyers to know the relevant legal landscape just like we do. I have plenty of friends and relatives who work in construction or architecture and knowing the building codes and everything related to it is something you learn at university, update every year and is something every person involved in planning and constructing a building is aware of. Lawyers only get involved if a building fails.

jlg23 9y ago
Construction workers and architects don't tend to work internationally. If they do, they hire lawyers to sort out legal requirements for them before they even sign a contract.
- the_mitsuhiko 9y ago
  The same should be true for most software companies going forward. The approach to just assume it's the obligation of the user to ensure compliance won't work for much longer.
  - woolvalley 9y ago
    Imagine the EU made a law requiring every country in the world follow their building codes whenever an EU citizen enters one of their buildings, even if the building was made before the law was created. And if you don't comply, they will fine you millions of dollars. McDonalds goes and retrofits all of their buildings in the world because they have shops in the EU at great cost. Some pizza shop that does delivery in the USA, and the owners go on vacation once in a while in Europe? ‍️They probably are not even aware of it. That is what the GDPR is in a nutshell.
    - the_mitsuhiko 9y ago
      > Imagine the EU made a law requiring every country in the world follow their building codes whenever an EU citizen enters one of their buildings You are reaching. I give you a better example: it does not matter where a building part is being produced, if it ends up in a building in Europe it needs to be up to the local building codes and to the regulations of the single market.
      - woolvalley 9y ago
        You think I am reaching, but the GDPR does act this way. Lets say your visiting the USA as an EU citizen and you get a pizza delivery from a local small pizza shop. They put your name and delivery address in their computer in an MS Access database that makes stickers, emails the delivery guy's gmail account and a person delivers a pizza to you. They have no idea your an EU citizen and they just put enough information into their computer that would violate the GDPR. They have no real way to comply unless they retrofit their computer system to some vendor that is GDPR compliant, if it even exists. Just deleting your info from the msaccess db and asking the delivery guy to delete their emails isn't enough for the GDPR. And a computer system retrofit for most business might as well be like asking them to retrofit their building as far as costs go. The end effect might be just outright banning all EU citizens from doing business with various places, because it's just not worth the hassle. 'Sorry you cant stay at our hotel, we are not GDPR compliant' 'Sorry we won't deliver to you, we are not GDPR compliant' 'Sorry you can't enroll in our classes, we are not GDPR compliant' 'Sorry we won't treat you at this hospital, we are not GDPR compliant' 'Sorry you can't get a bank account with us, we are not GDPR compliant' (Like a lot of EU banks with US citizens with FATCA)
        the_mitsuhiko 9y ago
        > Lets say your visiting the USA as an EU citizen and you get a pizza delivery from a local small pizza shop If that pizza store has no relation to the EU then there is no legal ground by which the GDPR could become relevant. There is no treaty which would establish some sory of leverage here. //EDIT: which btw is unlike FATCA for which there actually are bilateral agreements.
        woolvalley 9y ago
        You don't need a treaty to enforce the law, you just need a pizza shop owner who likes to vacation in europe sometimes. You carry out the default judgement if they ever arrive in the EU. The GDPR explicitly has a very global scope because it is targeting companies in and out of the EU. I wouldn't really have much of a problem with the GDPR if it had some small business and non-eu business exceptions. It doesn't and regulators saying 'trust us we wont prosecute the easy to prosecute!' makes most businesses uneasy.
dfee 9y ago
Unlikely. Lawyers are an invisible hand, always present. They’re the ones who prepare the trainings for your relatives and the other architectural students, or at the minimum the changes that a policy-wonk will react to when creating curriculum. The site operator has the limited range to act (we’ll call them decision rights) under the CEO who is ultimately guided by his counsel (firm or in-house). Lawyers also oversee zoning, permitting, and certifying every step of the way - not limited to, but including licensing and contracting.

jlg23 9y ago

Construction workers and architects don't tend to work internationally. If they do, they hire lawyers to sort out legal requirements for them before they even sign a contract.

the_mitsuhiko 9y ago
The same should be true for most software companies going forward. The approach to just assume it's the obligation of the user to ensure compliance won't work for much longer.
- woolvalley 9y ago
  Imagine the EU made a law requiring every country in the world follow their building codes whenever an EU citizen enters one of their buildings, even if the building was made before the law was created. And if you don't comply, they will fine you millions of dollars. McDonalds goes and retrofits all of their buildings in the world because they have shops in the EU at great cost. Some pizza shop that does delivery in the USA, and the owners go on vacation once in a while in Europe? ‍️They probably are not even aware of it. That is what the GDPR is in a nutshell.
  - the_mitsuhiko 9y ago
    > Imagine the EU made a law requiring every country in the world follow their building codes whenever an EU citizen enters one of their buildings You are reaching. I give you a better example: it does not matter where a building part is being produced, if it ends up in a building in Europe it needs to be up to the local building codes and to the regulations of the single market.
    - woolvalley 9y ago
      You think I am reaching, but the GDPR does act this way. Lets say your visiting the USA as an EU citizen and you get a pizza delivery from a local small pizza shop. They put your name and delivery address in their computer in an MS Access database that makes stickers, emails the delivery guy's gmail account and a person delivers a pizza to you. They have no idea your an EU citizen and they just put enough information into their computer that would violate the GDPR. They have no real way to comply unless they retrofit their computer system to some vendor that is GDPR compliant, if it even exists. Just deleting your info from the msaccess db and asking the delivery guy to delete their emails isn't enough for the GDPR. And a computer system retrofit for most business might as well be like asking them to retrofit their building as far as costs go. The end effect might be just outright banning all EU citizens from doing business with various places, because it's just not worth the hassle. 'Sorry you cant stay at our hotel, we are not GDPR compliant' 'Sorry we won't deliver to you, we are not GDPR compliant' 'Sorry you can't enroll in our classes, we are not GDPR compliant' 'Sorry we won't treat you at this hospital, we are not GDPR compliant' 'Sorry you can't get a bank account with us, we are not GDPR compliant' (Like a lot of EU banks with US citizens with FATCA)
      - the_mitsuhiko 9y ago
        > Lets say your visiting the USA as an EU citizen and you get a pizza delivery from a local small pizza shop If that pizza store has no relation to the EU then there is no legal ground by which the GDPR could become relevant. There is no treaty which would establish some sory of leverage here. //EDIT: which btw is unlike FATCA for which there actually are bilateral agreements.
        woolvalley 9y ago
        You don't need a treaty to enforce the law, you just need a pizza shop owner who likes to vacation in europe sometimes. You carry out the default judgement if they ever arrive in the EU. The GDPR explicitly has a very global scope because it is targeting companies in and out of the EU. I wouldn't really have much of a problem with the GDPR if it had some small business and non-eu business exceptions. It doesn't and regulators saying 'trust us we wont prosecute the easy to prosecute!' makes most businesses uneasy.

dfee 9y ago

Unlikely. Lawyers are an invisible hand, always present. They’re the ones who prepare the trainings for your relatives and the other architectural students, or at the minimum the changes that a policy-wonk will react to when creating curriculum. The site operator has the limited range to act (we’ll call them decision rights) under the CEO who is ultimately guided by his counsel (firm or in-house). Lawyers also oversee zoning, permitting, and certifying every step of the way - not limited to, but including licensing and contracting.