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"The extraterritorial nature of these two frameworks..." I've noticed that this is something the EU has tried to do lately, to just sort of push their regulati

"The extraterritorial nature of these two frameworks..." I've noticed that this is something the EU has tried to do lately, to just sort of push their regulations on the rest of the world. I don't see what sort of authority they'd have to impose this on citizens of other countries. I wonder if Europe pushes the issue, if this will be treated like libel tourism, where US citizens and companies without a Eurpoean nexus will be explicitly protected from judgements against them.

dragonwriter 9y ago
> I don't see what sort of authority they'd have to impose this on citizens of other countries. The authority they have is that delegated by the sovereign members of the EU, and the fact that the authority of a sovereign power is limited only by its own decisions and it's practical capabilities. (The US also imposes it's ruled extraterritorially when it feels like it.)
- wuliwong 9y ago
  I agree but I think a similar question would be: how would this ever be enforced on a US based company/website where it had a EU visitor. I wrote this in another comment but I think outside of just blocking your site in the EU, they would need a further agreement (or I guess precedent) with the US government to actually enforce a penalty on the US company.
  - kuschku 9y ago
    > but I think outside of just blocking your site in the EU, they would need a further agreement (or I guess precedent) with the US government to actually enforce a penalty on the US company. The US has given lots of precedent cases for that. The usual approach the US takes is to force the banks the foreign site is operating with to seize all assets. The EU likely would do the same.
izacus 9y ago
How is that different from US pushing their DMCA rules to us Europeans and removing our content from services with legal proof?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- trothamel 9y ago
  It isn't? European companies shouldn't be subject to the DMCA, unless they have a nexus in the US.
breakingcups 9y ago
It's quite simple. If you want to do business in the EU or with people who reside in the EU, you need to comply with the EU's regulations. Don't like it? Don't do business in/with the EU. Then you're free to ignore their frameworks, rules and regulations. They are not trying to "impose their regulations on the rest of the world", they're trying to protect the privacy of their inhabitants. That this leads to measures that need to be taken by companies doing business with (the data of) their inhabitants is a side-effect and only logical.
- mbesto 9y ago
  > Don't like it? Don't do business in/with the EU. Then you're free to ignore their frameworks, rules and regulations. So, should you just start blocking IPs from EU-based citizens?
  - Tomte 9y ago
    Yes, if you're not willing to comply, that's exactly what you should do. OTOH it just shows your remaining customers that you're willing to do shitty things to them, as long as America is trailing in privacy legislation.
    - aleksei 9y ago
      Geoblocking IPs is not a solution, unless you're willing to let some people slip through and block people who you don't need to block. Also, not everyone connecting from a EU country is a citizen thereof.
      - robin_reala 9y ago
        GDPR doesn’t just apply to citizens of EU countries, it also applies to residents and potentially people just passing through (e.g. changing flights at an EU hub).
    - ChickeNES 9y ago
      Given that the average small-to-medium sized business in the US is unlikely to do any business outside of the US, I think we'll be fine. :)
sveme 9y ago
It's something that basically every big block is trying to do, the US has enforced DMCA and other stuff on other providers as well. Though in principle, GDPR only covers EU citizens - if you would be selling a product from Australia that exploded upon using it for the first time to an EU citizen, wouldn't you expect EU authorities to go after you as well?
- trothamel 9y ago
  No, I'd expect Australian regulators to be the ones that went after you in that case.
  - sveme 9y ago
    Hmm, if you're selling into the EU, it's EU regulations that you have to follow, not Australian. Maybe we just misunderstood each other, I'm talking about shipping a product to the EU.
nihonde 9y ago
The GDPR applies to transactions with a nexus in the Union. If a US or Chinese traveler books a hotel in Germany, the GDPR protects their data. If a Chinese hotel chain offers a room to a German guest, the GDPR applies to processing of that guest’s data, even if the chain has no other presence in the Union. If that chain stays out of EU data protection agency reach, enforcement is a non-issue. But if Germany and China were to enter a bilateral agreement (as the US will), or if the Chinese hotel chain wants to establish a presence in Europe, then compliance is not optional. Fines are up to 4% of “global turnover”, which is a serious risk to take lightly.
- kazen44 9y ago
  > If that chain stays out of EU data protection agency reach, enforcement is a non-issue. But if Germany and China were to enter a bilateral agreement (as the US will). this is a very good point actually, GDPR will probably also be used in trade agreements as a requirement, in which the EU has a lot of leverage compared to most other nations/trading blocks across the world. In the end, the reason the EU can do it is simply because it has enough political leverage to make this happen. edit: To add to this, I think these kind of things will be good in the long run, especially when the EU starts more trading talks with smaller nations, which are usually very eager to get into a trade agreement with the EU, especially for african nations as it usually allows more ways for legal migration and includes foreign aid a lot of the times.
pjc50 9y ago
As came up last time, this is the mirror image of the way the US treats anyone anywhere in the world running a gambling website.
allendoerfer 9y ago
If you have ever opened a bank account in Europe, you have come across a checkbox, where you have to specify that you are not an American citizen. The US pushes their regulations on companies outside their jurisdiction, too.
- blibble 9y ago
  the result for banking is that European banks refuse to let Americans open bank accounts depending on the levels enforcement I suspect the same will be true of many popular online services for GDPR: you check the "EU citizen" checkbox and you're banned
  - jamiepenney 9y ago
    It's not just Europe, I've heard of banks here in New Zealand doing the same. The cost of compliance for them was more than the customer was worth.

dragonwriter 9y ago

> I don't see what sort of authority they'd have to impose this on citizens of other countries. The authority they have is that delegated by the sovereign members of the EU, and the fact that the authority of a sovereign power is limited only by its own decisions and it's practical capabilities. (The US also imposes it's ruled extraterritorially when it feels like it.)

wuliwong 9y ago
I agree but I think a similar question would be: how would this ever be enforced on a US based company/website where it had a EU visitor. I wrote this in another comment but I think outside of just blocking your site in the EU, they would need a further agreement (or I guess precedent) with the US government to actually enforce a penalty on the US company.
- kuschku 9y ago
  > but I think outside of just blocking your site in the EU, they would need a further agreement (or I guess precedent) with the US government to actually enforce a penalty on the US company. The US has given lots of precedent cases for that. The usual approach the US takes is to force the banks the foreign site is operating with to seize all assets. The EU likely would do the same.

izacus 9y ago

How is that different from US pushing their DMCA rules to us Europeans and removing our content from services with legal proof?

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
trothamel 9y ago
It isn't? European companies shouldn't be subject to the DMCA, unless they have a nexus in the US.

breakingcups 9y ago

It's quite simple. If you want to do business in the EU or with people who reside in the EU, you need to comply with the EU's regulations. Don't like it? Don't do business in/with the EU. Then you're free to ignore their frameworks, rules and regulations. They are not trying to "impose their regulations on the rest of the world", they're trying to protect the privacy of their inhabitants. That this leads to measures that need to be taken by companies doing business with (the data of) their inhabitants is a side-effect and only logical.

mbesto 9y ago
> Don't like it? Don't do business in/with the EU. Then you're free to ignore their frameworks, rules and regulations. So, should you just start blocking IPs from EU-based citizens?
- Tomte 9y ago
  Yes, if you're not willing to comply, that's exactly what you should do. OTOH it just shows your remaining customers that you're willing to do shitty things to them, as long as America is trailing in privacy legislation.
  - aleksei 9y ago
    Geoblocking IPs is not a solution, unless you're willing to let some people slip through and block people who you don't need to block. Also, not everyone connecting from a EU country is a citizen thereof.
    - robin_reala 9y ago
      GDPR doesn’t just apply to citizens of EU countries, it also applies to residents and potentially people just passing through (e.g. changing flights at an EU hub).
  - ChickeNES 9y ago
    Given that the average small-to-medium sized business in the US is unlikely to do any business outside of the US, I think we'll be fine. :)

sveme 9y ago

It's something that basically every big block is trying to do, the US has enforced DMCA and other stuff on other providers as well. Though in principle, GDPR only covers EU citizens - if you would be selling a product from Australia that exploded upon using it for the first time to an EU citizen, wouldn't you expect EU authorities to go after you as well?

trothamel 9y ago
No, I'd expect Australian regulators to be the ones that went after you in that case.
- sveme 9y ago
  Hmm, if you're selling into the EU, it's EU regulations that you have to follow, not Australian. Maybe we just misunderstood each other, I'm talking about shipping a product to the EU.

nihonde 9y ago

The GDPR applies to transactions with a nexus in the Union. If a US or Chinese traveler books a hotel in Germany, the GDPR protects their data. If a Chinese hotel chain offers a room to a German guest, the GDPR applies to processing of that guest’s data, even if the chain has no other presence in the Union. If that chain stays out of EU data protection agency reach, enforcement is a non-issue. But if Germany and China were to enter a bilateral agreement (as the US will), or if the Chinese hotel chain wants to establish a presence in Europe, then compliance is not optional. Fines are up to 4% of “global turnover”, which is a serious risk to take lightly.

kazen44 9y ago
> If that chain stays out of EU data protection agency reach, enforcement is a non-issue. But if Germany and China were to enter a bilateral agreement (as the US will). this is a very good point actually, GDPR will probably also be used in trade agreements as a requirement, in which the EU has a lot of leverage compared to most other nations/trading blocks across the world. In the end, the reason the EU can do it is simply because it has enough political leverage to make this happen. edit: To add to this, I think these kind of things will be good in the long run, especially when the EU starts more trading talks with smaller nations, which are usually very eager to get into a trade agreement with the EU, especially for african nations as it usually allows more ways for legal migration and includes foreign aid a lot of the times.

pjc50 9y ago

As came up last time, this is the mirror image of the way the US treats anyone anywhere in the world running a gambling website.

allendoerfer 9y ago

If you have ever opened a bank account in Europe, you have come across a checkbox, where you have to specify that you are not an American citizen. The US pushes their regulations on companies outside their jurisdiction, too.

blibble 9y ago
the result for banking is that European banks refuse to let Americans open bank accounts depending on the levels enforcement I suspect the same will be true of many popular online services for GDPR: you check the "EU citizen" checkbox and you're banned
- jamiepenney 9y ago
  It's not just Europe, I've heard of banks here in New Zealand doing the same. The cost of compliance for them was more than the customer was worth.