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Diesel is subsidized, as it is in other parts of Europe.

jacquesm 9y ago
It is not, and is not in other parts of Europe. The only fuel in Europe that you could class as 'subsidized' is so called 'red' diesel that is used in agriculture. You could run that in your regular diesel engine and it will work just fine but the coloring will stain the fuel delivery system and the tank in such a way that even many runs of regular fuel later it is detectable and this will get you a very heavy fine.
- Xylakant 9y ago
  Diesel is taxed significantly lower than petrol in germany which accounts for most of the substantial price difference. One could argue that this is a form ob subsidy.
  - jacquesm 9y ago
    Absence of tax is not a subsidy. A subsidy is when something is cheaper than it should be because the government picks up some of the costs.
    - Xylakant 9y ago
      They are both taxed, but at a different rate. The government picks up the cost in terms of lost income. Yes, it's a subsidy (a deliberate tax break). The historic reason is that diesel was used for trucks. Later, diesel cars were considered to be environmentally better since they produce less CO2 per kilometer. They're just worse in other regards.
      - jacquesm 9y ago
        I'm sorry, but I just can't agree with you. If we start to take words and stretch their meaning beyond the agreed upon definition then any argument becomes meaningless. 'subsidy' is a very clearly defined term. "a sum of money granted by the state or a public body to help an industry or business keep the price of a commodity or service low." If the state is issuing a tax on something it is by definition not subsidized.
        Xylakant 9y ago
        I hate quoting wikipedia, but the definition they use is far wider: "A subsidy is a form of financial aid or support extended to an economic sector (or institution, business, or individual) generally with the aim of promoting economic and social policy.[1] Although commonly extended from government, the term subsidy can relate to any type of support – for example from NGOs or as implicit subsidies. Subsidies come in various forms including: direct (cash grants, interest-free loans) and indirect (tax breaks, insurance, low-interest loans, accelerated depreciation, rent rebates)." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidy That would at least indicate that the definition is by far not as clear as you would like to have it. Diesel is taxed lower with the aim of promoting two economic goals: lowering total CO2 output and supporting the transportation sector. It falls really right under that definition.
        davrosthedalek 9y ago
        But it's not a tax break. You pay more taxes on diesel than on other things, except gas. Are all other things subsidized because they don't have the gas tax?
        Xylakant 9y ago
        You’re being deliberately obtuse. It’s the same thing as gas: fuel, to power a car. It just happens to be a slightly different mix of hydrocarbons. It’s sold from the same machine, at the same place for the same purpose. And it’s taxed the same way in pretty much all European countries, Germany is the odd outlier. Different kinds of petrol are taxed the same way, too. The same mix of hydrocarbons that is diesel fuel is sold for heatings as well (Heizöl) It’s taxed different - since it’s a different use. And since that one is taxed much lower, they add a red color and using it as fuel is tax evasion and lands you in jail.
        davrosthedalek 9y ago
        The Energiesteuergesetz is the law which regulates the taxes. It has individual tax rates for Benzin (gasoline), Diesel, CNG (gas), LPG (autogas), heavy oil. Per fixed amount of energy, diesel is the second highest taxed energy carrier.
  - davrosthedalek 9y ago
    Isn't the logical conclusion of this argument that gas is also subsidized because the tax could be higher? Or that toys are subsidized because they don't have the additional diesel/gas tax (which, btw, you pay VAT on...)?

It is not, and is not in other parts of Europe. The only fuel in Europe that you could class as 'subsidized' is so called 'red' diesel that is used in agriculture. You could run that in your regular diesel engine and it will work just fine but the coloring will stain the fuel delivery system and the tank in such a way that even many runs of regular fuel later it is detectable and this will get you a very heavy fine.

Xylakant 9y ago
Diesel is taxed significantly lower than petrol in germany which accounts for most of the substantial price difference. One could argue that this is a form ob subsidy.
- jacquesm 9y ago
  Absence of tax is not a subsidy. A subsidy is when something is cheaper than it should be because the government picks up some of the costs.
  - Xylakant 9y ago
    They are both taxed, but at a different rate. The government picks up the cost in terms of lost income. Yes, it's a subsidy (a deliberate tax break). The historic reason is that diesel was used for trucks. Later, diesel cars were considered to be environmentally better since they produce less CO2 per kilometer. They're just worse in other regards.
    - jacquesm 9y ago
      I'm sorry, but I just can't agree with you. If we start to take words and stretch their meaning beyond the agreed upon definition then any argument becomes meaningless. 'subsidy' is a very clearly defined term. "a sum of money granted by the state or a public body to help an industry or business keep the price of a commodity or service low." If the state is issuing a tax on something it is by definition not subsidized.
      - Xylakant 9y ago
        I hate quoting wikipedia, but the definition they use is far wider: "A subsidy is a form of financial aid or support extended to an economic sector (or institution, business, or individual) generally with the aim of promoting economic and social policy.[1] Although commonly extended from government, the term subsidy can relate to any type of support – for example from NGOs or as implicit subsidies. Subsidies come in various forms including: direct (cash grants, interest-free loans) and indirect (tax breaks, insurance, low-interest loans, accelerated depreciation, rent rebates)." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidy That would at least indicate that the definition is by far not as clear as you would like to have it. Diesel is taxed lower with the aim of promoting two economic goals: lowering total CO2 output and supporting the transportation sector. It falls really right under that definition.
        davrosthedalek 9y ago
        But it's not a tax break. You pay more taxes on diesel than on other things, except gas. Are all other things subsidized because they don't have the gas tax?
        Xylakant 9y ago
        You’re being deliberately obtuse. It’s the same thing as gas: fuel, to power a car. It just happens to be a slightly different mix of hydrocarbons. It’s sold from the same machine, at the same place for the same purpose. And it’s taxed the same way in pretty much all European countries, Germany is the odd outlier. Different kinds of petrol are taxed the same way, too. The same mix of hydrocarbons that is diesel fuel is sold for heatings as well (Heizöl) It’s taxed different - since it’s a different use. And since that one is taxed much lower, they add a red color and using it as fuel is tax evasion and lands you in jail.
        davrosthedalek 9y ago
        The Energiesteuergesetz is the law which regulates the taxes. It has individual tax rates for Benzin (gasoline), Diesel, CNG (gas), LPG (autogas), heavy oil. Per fixed amount of energy, diesel is the second highest taxed energy carrier.
- davrosthedalek 9y ago
  Isn't the logical conclusion of this argument that gas is also subsidized because the tax could be higher? Or that toys are subsidized because they don't have the additional diesel/gas tax (which, btw, you pay VAT on...)?