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You had me until "I called the two companies we hired to improve our ranking." Google did not cost you $4 million, the fact that you were spamming Google did. A

by mustpax 16y ago

You had me until "I called the two companies we hired to improve our ranking." Google did not cost you $4 million, the fact that you were spamming Google did. As it very well should.

dabent 16y ago
Apparently the editors at Inc. came up with that headline, not the author: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1646234 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1646234
- gojomo 16y ago
  That's traditional for print publications. A reporter or essayist may get to suggest a title... but editors usually compose the headlines.
rit 16y ago
I was looking for that one. In one paragraph he says they didn't do anything and the algorithms must have changed. And then he called his SEOs.
Semiapies 16y ago
This whole post boils down to, *After being dope-slapped for SEO hijinks, we leaned how to properly make people aware of us. Aren't we cool?"
- alex_c 16y ago
  I think that's a very valuable point to make, though. None of this stuff is obvious to someone who doesn't live and breathe technology and who wants to use the web to grow a bricks-and-mortar business.
- Andrew_Quentin 16y ago
  Do you not mean after being penalised for spaming google we learned to spam everyone else but google?
luigi 16y ago
Developers can and should take care of SEO themselves. No so-called experts needed. I did a talk about it this weekend at Lone Star Ruby Conf: http://www.slideshare.net/luigimontanez/searchfriendly-web-development-lone-star-ruby-conference-2010 http://www.slideshare.net/luigimontanez/searchfriendly-web-d...
- sosuke 16y ago
  SEO is great for developers but he was paying for SEM, those folks cold contacted sites to link back to him, that takes a lot of time to do and SEO alone won't get you to the top of the SERPs for common keywords.
  - luigi 16y ago
    Cold contacting sites to ask for linkbacks is not marketing, it's a lame and rarely successful attempt to game PageRank.
    - sosuke 16y ago
      I haven't done it myself because my wallet isn't deep enough but I've seen it be very successful for my competitors who's emails make it into my inbox and I then check their Google link: list that shows it does actually work. Lame or not the proof is in the search engine result position.
    - byrneseyeview 16y ago
      1. It's PR. PR via email, but still PR. 2. Maybe it's lame. 3. Rarely successful? Any data there? It has certainly worked for the people I've done it for. 4. PageRank is not the goal. Qualified, revenue-producing traffic is the goal.
      - Andrew_Quentin 16y ago
        Of course PageRank increases qualified, revenue-producing traffic.
    - 16y ago
byrneseyeview 16y ago
Hiring two SEO companies is a terrible idea. You know they'll compete, and the one that uses the most aggressive (i.e. black-hat) techniques will probably win. I generally turn down SEO projects when there's another firm involved.
- lzw 16y ago
  Since you do SEO, HN might benefit from a blog post about how to do legitimate SEO, or why to hire SEO people. I consider SEO as part of the design of projects I consider, I don't consider it a service or something I might hire someone to do, but then my perception is that outsourced SEO means spamming links around. I admit I may be ignorant and maybe you can enlighten us.
  - byrneseyeview 16y ago
    I highly recommend Patio11's writing on the subject, especially: http://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/01/24/startup-seo/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/01/24/startup-seo/ Patrick is a member of the excellent seobook.com community, which is also a great source.
    - sireat 16y ago
      I used to love reading Aarons seobook.com blog, back when it was just selling an e-book, but I am curious these days about worth of the $300 a month tag for "joining" a community. I would have thought one would need to do well over low 6 figures to justify such an expense. Edit: I see Patrick is a moderator, so I assume it is a "barter" deal.
      - patio11 16y ago
        I used to pay a hundred a month for it, though I get it free now because text boxes activate my write advice instinct, and some advice helped people out. BCC does substantially in excess of $3.6k a year due to advice I got from Aaron. YMMV.
kgo 16y ago
In the guys defense, he's not exactly Steve Jobs or Bill Gates. He runs a freaking flower shop. SEO isn't exactly a 'core-copentency'. I don't think it was unreasonable for him to assume that the business' he hired to do SEO were operating in a legal and ethical manner.
petercooper 16y ago
Standing separate from the article's revelations, hiring companies to "improve your ranking" is not on its own the same as "spamming Google." This isn't an attack on your statement, but an attempt at clarifying something that could be misunderstood by readers. There are plenty of ethical, reputable freelancers and companies who advice businesses on SEO related issues like getting title tags right, producing compelling content, good file name structure, and beneficial white-hat stuff like that.

by mustpax 16y ago

You had me until "I called the two companies we hired to improve our ranking." Google did not cost you $4 million, the fact that you were spamming Google did. As it very well should.

dabent 16y ago

Apparently the editors at Inc. came up with that headline, not the author: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1646234 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1646234

gojomo 16y ago
That's traditional for print publications. A reporter or essayist may get to suggest a title... but editors usually compose the headlines.

rit 16y ago

I was looking for that one. In one paragraph he says they didn't do anything and the algorithms must have changed. And then he called his SEOs.

Semiapies 16y ago

This whole post boils down to, *After being dope-slapped for SEO hijinks, we leaned how to properly make people aware of us. Aren't we cool?"

alex_c 16y ago
I think that's a very valuable point to make, though. None of this stuff is obvious to someone who doesn't live and breathe technology and who wants to use the web to grow a bricks-and-mortar business.
Andrew_Quentin 16y ago
Do you not mean after being penalised for spaming google we learned to spam everyone else but google?

luigi 16y ago

Developers can and should take care of SEO themselves. No so-called experts needed. I did a talk about it this weekend at Lone Star Ruby Conf: http://www.slideshare.net/luigimontanez/searchfriendly-web-development-lone-star-ruby-conference-2010 http://www.slideshare.net/luigimontanez/searchfriendly-web-d...

sosuke 16y ago
SEO is great for developers but he was paying for SEM, those folks cold contacted sites to link back to him, that takes a lot of time to do and SEO alone won't get you to the top of the SERPs for common keywords.
- luigi 16y ago
  Cold contacting sites to ask for linkbacks is not marketing, it's a lame and rarely successful attempt to game PageRank.
  - sosuke 16y ago
    I haven't done it myself because my wallet isn't deep enough but I've seen it be very successful for my competitors who's emails make it into my inbox and I then check their Google link: list that shows it does actually work. Lame or not the proof is in the search engine result position.
  - byrneseyeview 16y ago
    1. It's PR. PR via email, but still PR. 2. Maybe it's lame. 3. Rarely successful? Any data there? It has certainly worked for the people I've done it for. 4. PageRank is not the goal. Qualified, revenue-producing traffic is the goal.
    - Andrew_Quentin 16y ago
      Of course PageRank increases qualified, revenue-producing traffic.
  - 16y ago

byrneseyeview 16y ago

Hiring two SEO companies is a terrible idea. You know they'll compete, and the one that uses the most aggressive (i.e. black-hat) techniques will probably win. I generally turn down SEO projects when there's another firm involved.

lzw 16y ago
Since you do SEO, HN might benefit from a blog post about how to do legitimate SEO, or why to hire SEO people. I consider SEO as part of the design of projects I consider, I don't consider it a service or something I might hire someone to do, but then my perception is that outsourced SEO means spamming links around. I admit I may be ignorant and maybe you can enlighten us.
- byrneseyeview 16y ago
  I highly recommend Patio11's writing on the subject, especially: http://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/01/24/startup-seo/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/01/24/startup-seo/ Patrick is a member of the excellent seobook.com community, which is also a great source.
  - sireat 16y ago
    I used to love reading Aarons seobook.com blog, back when it was just selling an e-book, but I am curious these days about worth of the $300 a month tag for "joining" a community. I would have thought one would need to do well over low 6 figures to justify such an expense. Edit: I see Patrick is a moderator, so I assume it is a "barter" deal.
    - patio11 16y ago
      I used to pay a hundred a month for it, though I get it free now because text boxes activate my write advice instinct, and some advice helped people out. BCC does substantially in excess of $3.6k a year due to advice I got from Aaron. YMMV.

kgo 16y ago

In the guys defense, he's not exactly Steve Jobs or Bill Gates. He runs a freaking flower shop. SEO isn't exactly a 'core-copentency'. I don't think it was unreasonable for him to assume that the business' he hired to do SEO were operating in a legal and ethical manner.

petercooper 16y ago

Standing separate from the article's revelations, hiring companies to "improve your ranking" is not on its own the same as "spamming Google." This isn't an attack on your statement, but an attempt at clarifying something that could be misunderstood by readers. There are plenty of ethical, reputable freelancers and companies who advice businesses on SEO related issues like getting title tags right, producing compelling content, good file name structure, and beneficial white-hat stuff like that.