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All the criteria you chose seem like bad proxies for the things that really matter. I would count the following as the fundamental metrics that really count. -

by whack 9y ago

All the criteria you chose seem like bad proxies for the things that really matter. I would count the following as the fundamental metrics that really count. - Average (high-end) programmer salary - Amount of VC funding - Total number of full-time tech workers The 1st and 2nd criteria determine how attractive the city is, for employees and founders respectively. The 3rd criteria determines how much clustering/network effects the city enjoys. On all 3 criteria, NYC is either 1st or 2nd. NYC hedge funds have bid up programmer salaries to levels that are virtually impossible to get anywhere else besides SFBA. The data on VC-funding shows NYC as a solid #2, only behind SFBA. And the linked article shows that in terms of networking potential, NYC is #2 as well. https://www.citylab.com/life/2017/10/venture-capital-concentration/539775/ https://www.citylab.com/life/2017/10/venture-capital-concent...

timothycrosley 9y ago
You sort of prove the cherry picking argument. Average salary means nothing in a vacuum without cost of living considered. And when it is... Unsurprisingly NYC comes in at the bottom of the list, https://www.codementor.io/blog/best-cities-software-engineer-earnings-271vpf599k https://www.codementor.io/blog/best-cities-software-engineer... Seattle is actually #1
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- tashoecraft 9y ago
  I can’t trust any of these comparisions because it’s difficult to compare apartments across cities. Average apartment costs in new york are meaningless. I know of no one paying 3k per month. Usually it’s between 1k-1.5k, which completely changes this graph.
  - ropans808 9y ago
    Please tell me where anyone is paying 1k-1.5k for an apartment in NYC. I am paying 2700/mo for 650 sqft, 45 minute commute from midtown, and I haven't seen anything better without a longer commute. Studios in my neighborhood are 1.6k+, and I am not in a happenin' place.
    - tashoecraft 9y ago
      Should have specified, but thought it would be implied...roomates or significant other. Yes it’s not an equal comparision to other areas as you can get a whole apartment there by yourself. If your paying 2700, find some roomates, move to bushwick/east williamsburg astoria, downtown brooklyn. And now your paying 1-1.5
    - steveklabnik 9y ago
      North Brooklyn is slightly higher than that range, but lower than 2700/month, and should be roughly the same commute time.
    - RulingWalnut 9y ago
      I lived in Harlem 30 minutes from Midtown in a 2bdrm with a roommmate for 850, I now live in Boerum Hill (really nice neighborhood) 30 minutes from Midtown in a studio for 1800. It's really not hard to find places that aren't that expensive, you just have to be patient / willing to have a roommate or two.
    - aje403 9y ago
      You can get 650 sqft in midtown or the surrounding neighborhoods for 2700, probably in an okay doorman building even.
  - wuliwong 9y ago
    $1,000/month for an entire apartment? Where in NYC?
    - aje403 9y ago
      Prospect Park
  - timothycrosley 9y ago
    It's not hard. And they're not. You're friends are paying 1K-1.5 to have a room. In the end if you have to pay as much for a room in city A as a whole apartment or mortgage in city B, you are getting paid less. To expand, both the the average and median price per a room per apartment is readily available and easily calculable. If a 2BD is 4K in city A and most people put 4 people in that apartment that doesn't mean all the sudden that it's the same deal as the same 2BD in city B that only cost $1K a month because most people don't share the space. The share cost is still a function of the actual cost, and easily computable and available in every city. Many people in Seattle split apartments and pay 500-600 per a room. They just aren't forced to because on average per cost of goods they get paid more. If anything Seattle has the calculations set up against it, as it has much much smaller city boundaries than NYC.
    - tashoecraft 9y ago
      I understand that, but my argument is that people usually spend up to the amount they are comfortable with because they are not rational actors. I made this argument a lot when the prius was becoming popular. Lots of people said it was overpriced, that is cost 30k and there were similarly equipped cars for 20k. But that completely missed who was buying the car. If someone is in the market to spend 30k on a car, they most likely will, as they have entered into a different price bracket. Same thing with apartments. Sure in Seattle you could share a space and pay less, my hunch (with no data to back this up) is that you probably wont. If I can comfortably afford 1-1.5k, then that's what I'm going to spend, regardless of city (Please don't nitpick and say 'Oh I share and pay less', I'm not speaking in absolutes). You obviously will get a more space/features/quality in Seattle for the money, but my argument against this guides is they say you will actually be making x, because I'll be paying more in rent. but that's not the case. Yes you can argue the missed cost of having more space, but that's not what they compare. My bank account is going to be the same after rent regardless of the major city I'm in. EDIT: Spelling and Grammar
      - timothycrosley 9y ago
        While there is def some sound logic to what you're saying I think the key piece you're missing is paying the same amount of monthly payments enables developers in Seattle to buy a home, which in the end means they are building equity by default while their counterparts in NYC could live their whole lives paying rent that keeps going up.
JOnAgain 9y ago
You get paid more gross in NYC than Seattle, but the take-home is less due to taxes. Cost of living is also approximately double. I did the math last year -- offer was 5% higher in NYC, but the after-tax and living disposable income was 50% higher in Seattle. 2/3rd the gross pay in Austin probably gives a significant "raise" in terms of relative standard of living and maybe 1/4 the money in many parts of Asia would move you even higher. All I'm saying is that Average Salary is probably a bad way to compare across geographies.
- vthallam 9y ago
  I thought while Cost of living in Seattle is relatively lesser than NYC, the house prices are exorbitant. NYC has advantage of very close proximity to NJ, Connecticut where you could probably get a better home than in Seattle-Bellvue-Redmond area.
  - lotsofpulp 9y ago
    The time, effort, and stress of commuting easily offsets any gains from living outside of NYC. Any city with decent neighborhoods will be at least a 60 minute commute door to door, plus you have to budget another 30 minutes for delays and whatnot because the public transit is terrible. It's very difficult to plan anything on work days if you're commuting into NYC, and you get to pay super high rents and property taxes for states with huge deficits and infrastructure debt which means the situation won't get any better. Seattle offers better food, recreational activities, growing future, and no income tax. I'd say the weather is better too, but some people really miss the sun, but you can easily fly to a beach resort for multiple weekends of the year with the savings of not living in the NYC area.
    - RHSeeger 9y ago
      On the other hand, for NYC most of your commute is by train. Resting on the train is a lot less stressful than driving.
      - 9y ago
tryitnow 9y ago
I agree those are good criteria but they tell only half the story. The other commenters metrics are more outcome focused. It's great if you have a lot of VC funding, but if it's not necessarily leading to attractive outcomes for investors or early employees then that's not going to be sustainable.
wuliwong 9y ago
> On all 3 criteria, NYC is either 1st or 2nd It's second on all three. First on zero.

by whack 9y ago

timothycrosley 9y ago

You sort of prove the cherry picking argument. Average salary means nothing in a vacuum without cost of living considered. And when it is... Unsurprisingly NYC comes in at the bottom of the list, https://www.codementor.io/blog/best-cities-software-engineer-earnings-271vpf599k https://www.codementor.io/blog/best-cities-software-engineer... Seattle is actually #1

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
tashoecraft 9y ago
I can’t trust any of these comparisions because it’s difficult to compare apartments across cities. Average apartment costs in new york are meaningless. I know of no one paying 3k per month. Usually it’s between 1k-1.5k, which completely changes this graph.
- ropans808 9y ago
  Please tell me where anyone is paying 1k-1.5k for an apartment in NYC. I am paying 2700/mo for 650 sqft, 45 minute commute from midtown, and I haven't seen anything better without a longer commute. Studios in my neighborhood are 1.6k+, and I am not in a happenin' place.
  - tashoecraft 9y ago
    Should have specified, but thought it would be implied...roomates or significant other. Yes it’s not an equal comparision to other areas as you can get a whole apartment there by yourself. If your paying 2700, find some roomates, move to bushwick/east williamsburg astoria, downtown brooklyn. And now your paying 1-1.5
  - steveklabnik 9y ago
    North Brooklyn is slightly higher than that range, but lower than 2700/month, and should be roughly the same commute time.
  - RulingWalnut 9y ago
    I lived in Harlem 30 minutes from Midtown in a 2bdrm with a roommmate for 850, I now live in Boerum Hill (really nice neighborhood) 30 minutes from Midtown in a studio for 1800. It's really not hard to find places that aren't that expensive, you just have to be patient / willing to have a roommate or two.
  - aje403 9y ago
    You can get 650 sqft in midtown or the surrounding neighborhoods for 2700, probably in an okay doorman building even.
- wuliwong 9y ago
  $1,000/month for an entire apartment? Where in NYC?
  - aje403 9y ago
    Prospect Park
- timothycrosley 9y ago
  It's not hard. And they're not. You're friends are paying 1K-1.5 to have a room. In the end if you have to pay as much for a room in city A as a whole apartment or mortgage in city B, you are getting paid less. To expand, both the the average and median price per a room per apartment is readily available and easily calculable. If a 2BD is 4K in city A and most people put 4 people in that apartment that doesn't mean all the sudden that it's the same deal as the same 2BD in city B that only cost $1K a month because most people don't share the space. The share cost is still a function of the actual cost, and easily computable and available in every city. Many people in Seattle split apartments and pay 500-600 per a room. They just aren't forced to because on average per cost of goods they get paid more. If anything Seattle has the calculations set up against it, as it has much much smaller city boundaries than NYC.
  - tashoecraft 9y ago
    I understand that, but my argument is that people usually spend up to the amount they are comfortable with because they are not rational actors. I made this argument a lot when the prius was becoming popular. Lots of people said it was overpriced, that is cost 30k and there were similarly equipped cars for 20k. But that completely missed who was buying the car. If someone is in the market to spend 30k on a car, they most likely will, as they have entered into a different price bracket. Same thing with apartments. Sure in Seattle you could share a space and pay less, my hunch (with no data to back this up) is that you probably wont. If I can comfortably afford 1-1.5k, then that's what I'm going to spend, regardless of city (Please don't nitpick and say 'Oh I share and pay less', I'm not speaking in absolutes). You obviously will get a more space/features/quality in Seattle for the money, but my argument against this guides is they say you will actually be making x, because I'll be paying more in rent. but that's not the case. Yes you can argue the missed cost of having more space, but that's not what they compare. My bank account is going to be the same after rent regardless of the major city I'm in. EDIT: Spelling and Grammar
    - timothycrosley 9y ago
      While there is def some sound logic to what you're saying I think the key piece you're missing is paying the same amount of monthly payments enables developers in Seattle to buy a home, which in the end means they are building equity by default while their counterparts in NYC could live their whole lives paying rent that keeps going up.

JOnAgain 9y ago

You get paid more gross in NYC than Seattle, but the take-home is less due to taxes. Cost of living is also approximately double. I did the math last year -- offer was 5% higher in NYC, but the after-tax and living disposable income was 50% higher in Seattle. 2/3rd the gross pay in Austin probably gives a significant "raise" in terms of relative standard of living and maybe 1/4 the money in many parts of Asia would move you even higher. All I'm saying is that Average Salary is probably a bad way to compare across geographies.

vthallam 9y ago
I thought while Cost of living in Seattle is relatively lesser than NYC, the house prices are exorbitant. NYC has advantage of very close proximity to NJ, Connecticut where you could probably get a better home than in Seattle-Bellvue-Redmond area.
- lotsofpulp 9y ago
  The time, effort, and stress of commuting easily offsets any gains from living outside of NYC. Any city with decent neighborhoods will be at least a 60 minute commute door to door, plus you have to budget another 30 minutes for delays and whatnot because the public transit is terrible. It's very difficult to plan anything on work days if you're commuting into NYC, and you get to pay super high rents and property taxes for states with huge deficits and infrastructure debt which means the situation won't get any better. Seattle offers better food, recreational activities, growing future, and no income tax. I'd say the weather is better too, but some people really miss the sun, but you can easily fly to a beach resort for multiple weekends of the year with the savings of not living in the NYC area.
  - RHSeeger 9y ago
    On the other hand, for NYC most of your commute is by train. Resting on the train is a lot less stressful than driving.
    - 9y ago

tryitnow 9y ago

I agree those are good criteria but they tell only half the story. The other commenters metrics are more outcome focused. It's great if you have a lot of VC funding, but if it's not necessarily leading to attractive outcomes for investors or early employees then that's not going to be sustainable.

wuliwong 9y ago

> On all 3 criteria, NYC is either 1st or 2nd It's second on all three. First on zero.