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Wow, this discussion is mindblowing. Working in software dev for 20 years, in Germany, and I have never seen any developer taking any stimulants. But maybe this

Wow, this discussion is mindblowing. Working in software dev for 20 years, in Germany, and I have never seen any developer taking any stimulants. But maybe this is because only my first job was at a young startup, and I quickly learned that working 24/7 just isn't for me and I need a more stable environment. Today, the way whalesalad and others describe the effect of Adderall sounds interesting to me, but I would never take the risk. I want to see my kids grow up, and I certainly wouldn't give this up just to be able to work more hours...

donquichotte 9y ago
I feel completely the same! I have been working in electrical engineering in Zurich, and I've never seen or heard anyone use anything other than caffeine during and alcohol after work. Now I wonder whether I'm just naive or there is a massive cultural divide between Silicon Valley and Central Europe w.r.t. stimulants.
- harryf 9y ago
  Meanwhile cocaine usage in Zürich is one of the highest in Europe ( https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/drug-capitals_zurich-is-europe-s-third-biggest-cocaine-hot-spot/42760246 https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/drug-capitals_zurich-is-europe-... ) which boggles my mind - I assume this is the finance industry
  - s3nnyy 9y ago
    Not only that but Zurich has been a drug hotspot in the 80s; we had cocaine, heroine, and, we believe, we found out how to fight it: https://www.pri.org/stories/2016-02-12/us-can-learn-lot-zurich-about-how-fight-its-heroin-crisis https://www.pri.org/stories/2016-02-12/us-can-learn-lot-zuri... Now it changed for the better but still the drug scene is relatively big and cocaine is used a lot both by youngsters 18-25 yrs olds and probably also by bankers.
    - tsme1 9y ago
      I agree. You really feel how people in Zurich (in social settings) are more tolerant towards drugs than in most other European cities. It's almost like Amsterdam.
    - whoishiring_ch 9y ago
      I agree. You really feel how people in Zurich (in social settings) are more tolerant towards drugs than in most other European cities. It's almost like Amsterdam.
  - tsme1 9y ago
    You really feel how people in Zurich (in social settings) are more tolerant towards drugs than in most other European cities. It's almost like Amsterdam.
IntronExon 9y ago
I would apply a grain of salt to the claims of people who are avid drug users, as to the popularity of drugs. There is an incredibly strong “birds of a feather flock together,” effect at play. The social circles of people who think they need drugs to do their job are going to only minimally overlap with people who find that notion crazy and dangerous.
- Eilene 9y ago
  So it's two separate cultures at work in the same industry--people who pretty much have no experience or want of drugs and a culture of using drugs, trying lots of things to get a productivity and efficiency boost?
  - IntronExon 9y ago
    It’s not just in the industry, it’s probably from high school or uni, but yeah you have the idea.
- Blahah 9y ago
  As one of those people, I completely agree. My entire social circle uses drugs in some way. But that means I don't see outside it. And I very often connect with people, adding them to my circle, because we subtly realise we both share that experience. So definitely don't assume my experiences are a random sample of the population :)
- quacker 9y ago
  > There is an incredibly strong “birds of a feather flock together,” effect at play Agreed. As an engineer who doesn't take any stimulants, what does it look like when another person is on Adderall? Maybe I'd notice a person snorting cocaine at work, but if I saw someone taking a pill? I'd figure it's probably just a painkiller, or a multi-vitamin, or for some health condition. Never would I suspect Adderall or some other stimulant. I basically presume that nobody at my office takes Adderall because I would never take it myself.
azeirah 9y ago
I can add one anecdatum, I'm from the Netherlands and don't know of drug abuse in the two businesses I interned at. I do know that some friends of mine, who are devs/engineers, occasionally use various drugs recreationally, but never for work. The only drug use I know of is ritalin or other legal stimulants for those diagnosed with ADD/ADHD, and of course coffee/tea/alcohol.
- kazen44 9y ago
  as someone in his late twenties from the netherlands, i roughly have the same experience. The recreational drug use has more to do with age in my experience then workfields. Most people i know who did softdrugs casually stopped doing so once they either settled down or got kids. It might just be my enviroment, but alcohol use is rampant and also heavily culturally ingrained in my area. (i live in the southern part of the netherlands. Drinking during dinner is not uncommon for example, even on weekdays.
bewe42 9y ago
Same here. I have worked in Germany, Spain and London and never seen any drug use. I would have shocked me for sure. I don't see the point or need.
phyller 9y ago
You need to reply to the comment by Blahah who thinks literally every developer in Germany is high all the time. I think people who do drugs just gravitate to other people that do drugs. For me, the limiting factor on my productivity is not how god-like my mental state is, it's whether I can get the info I need from that guy on the other team or when the project manager will sign off on a needed change :)
- ILikeConemowk 9y ago
  I live in Germany and can confirm that almost every German acquaintance I have who are in my age(27 have been here since 22) and work in tech has smoked or actively smokes marijuana. According to them it is "no big deal". Both men and women. I worked at an employer in the Cybersecurity industry, many potheads as well, openly so. At that employer there were around 60 people counting the secretaries. I know, for a fact, that at least 10(one woman, a couple of the men with anxiety issues and depression) smoked marijuana, at least one did coke and all had the typical "drink booze till you pass out" German attitude. Take my anectdata with a grain of salt.
  - phyller 9y ago
    I think in the US people are starting to classify marijuana with alcohol and tobacco. It's not illegal in a lot of states, where I live (in the US) it is legal for recreational use. My understanding was this discussion was about more illicit drug use.

donquichotte 9y ago

I feel completely the same! I have been working in electrical engineering in Zurich, and I've never seen or heard anyone use anything other than caffeine during and alcohol after work. Now I wonder whether I'm just naive or there is a massive cultural divide between Silicon Valley and Central Europe w.r.t. stimulants.

harryf 9y ago
Meanwhile cocaine usage in Zürich is one of the highest in Europe ( https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/drug-capitals_zurich-is-europe-s-third-biggest-cocaine-hot-spot/42760246 https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/drug-capitals_zurich-is-europe-... ) which boggles my mind - I assume this is the finance industry
- s3nnyy 9y ago
  Not only that but Zurich has been a drug hotspot in the 80s; we had cocaine, heroine, and, we believe, we found out how to fight it: https://www.pri.org/stories/2016-02-12/us-can-learn-lot-zurich-about-how-fight-its-heroin-crisis https://www.pri.org/stories/2016-02-12/us-can-learn-lot-zuri... Now it changed for the better but still the drug scene is relatively big and cocaine is used a lot both by youngsters 18-25 yrs olds and probably also by bankers.
  - tsme1 9y ago
    I agree. You really feel how people in Zurich (in social settings) are more tolerant towards drugs than in most other European cities. It's almost like Amsterdam.
  - whoishiring_ch 9y ago
    I agree. You really feel how people in Zurich (in social settings) are more tolerant towards drugs than in most other European cities. It's almost like Amsterdam.
- tsme1 9y ago
  You really feel how people in Zurich (in social settings) are more tolerant towards drugs than in most other European cities. It's almost like Amsterdam.

IntronExon 9y ago

I would apply a grain of salt to the claims of people who are avid drug users, as to the popularity of drugs. There is an incredibly strong “birds of a feather flock together,” effect at play. The social circles of people who think they need drugs to do their job are going to only minimally overlap with people who find that notion crazy and dangerous.

Eilene 9y ago
So it's two separate cultures at work in the same industry--people who pretty much have no experience or want of drugs and a culture of using drugs, trying lots of things to get a productivity and efficiency boost?
- IntronExon 9y ago
  It’s not just in the industry, it’s probably from high school or uni, but yeah you have the idea.
Blahah 9y ago
As one of those people, I completely agree. My entire social circle uses drugs in some way. But that means I don't see outside it. And I very often connect with people, adding them to my circle, because we subtly realise we both share that experience. So definitely don't assume my experiences are a random sample of the population :)
quacker 9y ago
> There is an incredibly strong “birds of a feather flock together,” effect at play Agreed. As an engineer who doesn't take any stimulants, what does it look like when another person is on Adderall? Maybe I'd notice a person snorting cocaine at work, but if I saw someone taking a pill? I'd figure it's probably just a painkiller, or a multi-vitamin, or for some health condition. Never would I suspect Adderall or some other stimulant. I basically presume that nobody at my office takes Adderall because I would never take it myself.

azeirah 9y ago

I can add one anecdatum, I'm from the Netherlands and don't know of drug abuse in the two businesses I interned at. I do know that some friends of mine, who are devs/engineers, occasionally use various drugs recreationally, but never for work. The only drug use I know of is ritalin or other legal stimulants for those diagnosed with ADD/ADHD, and of course coffee/tea/alcohol.

kazen44 9y ago
as someone in his late twenties from the netherlands, i roughly have the same experience. The recreational drug use has more to do with age in my experience then workfields. Most people i know who did softdrugs casually stopped doing so once they either settled down or got kids. It might just be my enviroment, but alcohol use is rampant and also heavily culturally ingrained in my area. (i live in the southern part of the netherlands. Drinking during dinner is not uncommon for example, even on weekdays.

bewe42 9y ago

Same here. I have worked in Germany, Spain and London and never seen any drug use. I would have shocked me for sure. I don't see the point or need.

phyller 9y ago

You need to reply to the comment by Blahah who thinks literally every developer in Germany is high all the time. I think people who do drugs just gravitate to other people that do drugs. For me, the limiting factor on my productivity is not how god-like my mental state is, it's whether I can get the info I need from that guy on the other team or when the project manager will sign off on a needed change :)

ILikeConemowk 9y ago
I live in Germany and can confirm that almost every German acquaintance I have who are in my age(27 have been here since 22) and work in tech has smoked or actively smokes marijuana. According to them it is "no big deal". Both men and women. I worked at an employer in the Cybersecurity industry, many potheads as well, openly so. At that employer there were around 60 people counting the secretaries. I know, for a fact, that at least 10(one woman, a couple of the men with anxiety issues and depression) smoked marijuana, at least one did coke and all had the typical "drink booze till you pass out" German attitude. Take my anectdata with a grain of salt.
- phyller 9y ago
  I think in the US people are starting to classify marijuana with alcohol and tobacco. It's not illegal in a lot of states, where I live (in the US) it is legal for recreational use. My understanding was this discussion was about more illicit drug use.