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Lived in the EU all my life and I did not know that. Bit silly to surpress important (nasty but important) history: it is also not taught in school then or are

Lived in the EU all my life and I did not know that. Bit silly to surpress important (nasty but important) history: it is also not taught in school then or are the exceptions? Edit: specifically asking about highschool kids learning about the symbols, not about WOII in general? Edit2: as far as I can find online the bans are about the flags and greet. I have been to brocantes in France where they sold SS pins etc so maybe it is not as strict?

detaro 9y ago
In Germany, it's allowed for educational or scientific purposes, artworks, clearly negative symbols (e.g. crossed-out swastika symbols of anti-nazi activists) and for religious purposes. Everyone knows what a Swastika looks like.
- tluyben2 9y ago
  I would consider the entire Wolfenstein game as negative material, but that is probably going too much into taste of individual to allow it. But yes Wolfenstein was banned in DE. I did not know it was that strict.
  - johannes1234321 9y ago
    Regarding the recent Wolfenstein 2 this is even weirder: For being able to sell it the publisher removed all Nazi symbols (including renaming Hitler to Mr. Heiler) but also changing the back story. The main character is supposed to be descent of Jews in a Extermination Camp, in the German version his mom died in a (regular) jail and Jews become "traitors". Which means that the result (apparently - I haven't played either edition) is a game full of Nazi-style settings ignoring all the evil cruelty of that regime, which is criticized in the original. https://www.br.de/radio/bayern2/sendungen/zuendfunk/netz-kultur/wolfenstein-the-new-colossus-nazis-skandal100.html https://www.br.de/radio/bayern2/sendungen/zuendfunk/netz-kul...
    - darklajid 9y ago
      Thanks for sharing that! I wasn't aware of either the next story line nor the absurd and crazy German adaption. That feels painfully wrong and is quite disgusting.
      - mschuster91 9y ago
        > That feels painfully wrong and is quite disgusting. The problem is that German legislature, jurisdiction and the self-regulating body are... not exactly the definition of agile, more the contrary... it took multiple court jurisdictions to get a final clearance for a f...ing crossed out swastika because some public prosecutors were hellbent on convicting antifas for reproduction of nazi propaganda (yes, for real!). The fact that most of these people are old white ... who never have played a computer game in their life doesn't exactly help gamers' rights in that area either.
        tluyben2 9y ago
        Do gamers care do you know? It is trivial to get versions of any software; cannot imagine people actually adhere to these laws in this case? Buy the censored version; get a torrent of the real thing?
        mschuster91 9y ago
        > Buy the censored version; get a torrent of the real thing? The problem with torrents or warez in general is: do you trust them? Or: do you trust someone hasn't taken a virus-free package and embedded a Bitcoin/Monero miner or other malware in there? Especially as many warez groups distribute keygens or cracks compressed and crypted so that other groups cannot easily reverse engineer the secrets, it's hard to check what's in the package - and many cracks actually trigger virus scanners due to the compression, so people turn off the AV and then get f..d...
        johannes1234321 9y ago
        You don't reach everybody. I also got the original Wolfenstein back in the days, long before Internet. However the reason for the regulation is relevant: This Nazi stuff shouldn't be fun or anything. Playing with it makes it simple to forget that those symbols represent evil mass murder. Also going back to the times where the initial versions of those laws were made: Back then Nazi symbolism was everywhere in the county and the Allies didn't want to allow any Nazi-heroism. Balancing this against "legit" use is tough, especially in context of historic games. The self-censorship mentioned in the article above is the result of a publisher trying to avoid hitting a law but still selling as much as they can, without really thinking about what they were doing.
pjc50 9y ago
https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCodeArticle.do?idArticle=LEGIARTI000006419560&cidTexte=LEGITEXT000006070719 https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCodeArticle.do?idArticl... - refers to "display in public" except for film, show, or "d'une exposition comportant une évocation historique". The history is not suppressed and very much is taught in school. It's just the public display of the symbols. It sounds like you can acquire them in private, provided you're not actually trying to be a member of the banned organisations. "membres d'une organisation déclarée criminelle en application de l'article 9 du statut du tribunal militaire international annexé à l'accord de Londres du 8 août 1945" refers to the Nuremberg accords.

detaro 9y ago

In Germany, it's allowed for educational or scientific purposes, artworks, clearly negative symbols (e.g. crossed-out swastika symbols of anti-nazi activists) and for religious purposes. Everyone knows what a Swastika looks like.

tluyben2 9y ago
I would consider the entire Wolfenstein game as negative material, but that is probably going too much into taste of individual to allow it. But yes Wolfenstein was banned in DE. I did not know it was that strict.
- johannes1234321 9y ago
  Regarding the recent Wolfenstein 2 this is even weirder: For being able to sell it the publisher removed all Nazi symbols (including renaming Hitler to Mr. Heiler) but also changing the back story. The main character is supposed to be descent of Jews in a Extermination Camp, in the German version his mom died in a (regular) jail and Jews become "traitors". Which means that the result (apparently - I haven't played either edition) is a game full of Nazi-style settings ignoring all the evil cruelty of that regime, which is criticized in the original. https://www.br.de/radio/bayern2/sendungen/zuendfunk/netz-kultur/wolfenstein-the-new-colossus-nazis-skandal100.html https://www.br.de/radio/bayern2/sendungen/zuendfunk/netz-kul...
  - darklajid 9y ago
    Thanks for sharing that! I wasn't aware of either the next story line nor the absurd and crazy German adaption. That feels painfully wrong and is quite disgusting.
    - mschuster91 9y ago
      > That feels painfully wrong and is quite disgusting. The problem is that German legislature, jurisdiction and the self-regulating body are... not exactly the definition of agile, more the contrary... it took multiple court jurisdictions to get a final clearance for a f...ing crossed out swastika because some public prosecutors were hellbent on convicting antifas for reproduction of nazi propaganda (yes, for real!). The fact that most of these people are old white ... who never have played a computer game in their life doesn't exactly help gamers' rights in that area either.
      - tluyben2 9y ago
        Do gamers care do you know? It is trivial to get versions of any software; cannot imagine people actually adhere to these laws in this case? Buy the censored version; get a torrent of the real thing?
        mschuster91 9y ago
        > Buy the censored version; get a torrent of the real thing? The problem with torrents or warez in general is: do you trust them? Or: do you trust someone hasn't taken a virus-free package and embedded a Bitcoin/Monero miner or other malware in there? Especially as many warez groups distribute keygens or cracks compressed and crypted so that other groups cannot easily reverse engineer the secrets, it's hard to check what's in the package - and many cracks actually trigger virus scanners due to the compression, so people turn off the AV and then get f..d...
        johannes1234321 9y ago
        You don't reach everybody. I also got the original Wolfenstein back in the days, long before Internet. However the reason for the regulation is relevant: This Nazi stuff shouldn't be fun or anything. Playing with it makes it simple to forget that those symbols represent evil mass murder. Also going back to the times where the initial versions of those laws were made: Back then Nazi symbolism was everywhere in the county and the Allies didn't want to allow any Nazi-heroism. Balancing this against "legit" use is tough, especially in context of historic games. The self-censorship mentioned in the article above is the result of a publisher trying to avoid hitting a law but still selling as much as they can, without really thinking about what they were doing.

pjc50 9y ago

https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCodeArticle.do?idArticle=LEGIARTI000006419560&cidTexte=LEGITEXT000006070719 https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCodeArticle.do?idArticl... - refers to "display in public" except for film, show, or "d'une exposition comportant une évocation historique". The history is not suppressed and very much is taught in school. It's just the public display of the symbols. It sounds like you can acquire them in private, provided you're not actually trying to be a member of the banned organisations. "membres d'une organisation déclarée criminelle en application de l'article 9 du statut du tribunal militaire international annexé à l'accord de Londres du 8 août 1945" refers to the Nuremberg accords.