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The message isn't portable if you think the message is "use your office to do workshops". I don't think that's the message here.

by ssharp 16y ago

tptacek 16y ago
You guys all sell yourselves short. Anyone on Hacker News with any technical skill who is running a business that pays for its own decent office space has tons of things to workshop, and as long as you're based on a major metro area, people will sign up. We've done it multiple times. Stop blowing this off.
- maw 16y ago
  Yes, many probably could. But that doesn't mean that the column's message was primarily about running workshops.
- points 16y ago
  Doing workshops seems scammy to me. It's like doing popup ads. Sure, you could, but eugh.
  - tptacek 16y ago
    What a head-explodey thing to say. Care to elaborate?
    - nkurz 16y ago
      I tend to agree with 'points', so I'll offer my explanation: Doing expensive one-day workshops might be a great way to make money, but it might be damaging to your brand. To me, it shows that the you are doing everything you can to wring maximum profit out of your existing infrastructure rather than concentrating on improving your core product. It has the same feel as a hot experimental band deciding to license their songs for fast-food commercials --- perhaps a good choice financially, but potentially bad for your image. It has a smell of desperation and greed. As to the 'scammy' part, I'm guessing[1] that not many people are paying for these sessions of out pocket. Rather, they convince their employer to pay, and that it's worth it. This presents a conflict of interest if the turns out to be not worth the money. When your boss asks you if the company's $1000 was well spent, and it was your idea to go, one might feel compelled to say 'yes' and even to go again the following year regardless of any price increases. This said, we'll probably be considering such strategies in the future. I have a food business, and while there is no way we could charge $1000/seat, there probably are some things we could do to boost the bottom line. [1] Jason responds below to point out that most of they are paying directly. I'm surprised, but presume he's right!
      - jasonfried 16y ago
        "As to the 'scammy' part, I'm guessing that not many people are paying for these sessions of out pocket. Rather, they convince their employer to pay, and that it's worth it." The majority of the people who attend our workshop do pay out of their own pockets. They are often individual entrepreneurs, business owners, or independent designers/programmers who are looking to learn what we have to teach. Anonymous post-workshop surveys have shown that people feel like $1000 is not only a good deal, but a bargain.
      - Timothee 16y ago
        I see your point, but it seems to me that there's much more to it than that. Sure, some people will give workshops primarily to make money. However, many will also give workshops for the experience of teaching. I have given trainings/workshops a few times and I've found it pretty satisfying to look for the best way to present things so that your audience "gets it" and goes out knowledgeable about the subject at hand. (it was particularly satisfying the very first time, two months after starting at my first job, feeling like I've been dropped off in there, ending realizing that I was indeed able to give that training after all :)) The thing is once you decide to give a workshop, you'll likely charge for it... and the price will be decided by the market somehow.
      - deleted 16y ago
        [deleted]
      - tptacek 16y ago
        Workshops damage brands. They smell of desperation and greed. They're like fast-food commercials. They're scammy because they're based on conflicts of interest. They sap energy from your core product. So naturally, you're going to consider doing them in the future. ka-ploooie There goes my brain.
        nkurz 16y ago
        Yes. Despite having a truly fantastic product, we're struggling to stay in business. It wouldn't be that much of a stretch to say that there have been times that I would consider robbing convenience stores to make payroll. I love making a great product, but hate the constant pressure to compromise my ideals to stay afloat. Every day I keep this business going, I fear that I'm turning into someone that I don't want to be, that I can't respect. But maybe my ideals are wrong, maybe workshops are win-win, maybe we need to consider them even if I don't personally care for them. They're certainly better than some other options! I also don't really hold it against bands when they 'sell out' --- they know their situation better than I do. :)
- patio11 16y ago
  There is a business in Ogaki which takes over a room at the local tech incubator (cost: ~$10 for 3 hours) and does a workshop on iPhone development every week. I'm told they occasionally need to split into two rooms, because they're filled. Can anyone here even point to Ogaki on a map? Do you know how not-very-hard it is to be the most famous developer in a particular technology in Ogaki? At the local tech incubator, we also put on weekly training events for things like software security, taught by people much less accomplished than anybody on Thomas' team, and we could still pack a room.
pier0 16y ago
The message is "succes makes you an expert at telling other people how successful you are".
pontifier 16y ago
Agreed, I immediately saw my sawdust after reading this article...

The message isn't portable if you think the message is "use your office to do workshops". I don't think that's the message here.

by ssharp 16y ago

The message isn't portable if you think the message is "use your office to do workshops". I don't think that's the message here.

tptacek 16y ago

You guys all sell yourselves short. Anyone on Hacker News with any technical skill who is running a business that pays for its own decent office space has tons of things to workshop, and as long as you're based on a major metro area, people will sign up. We've done it multiple times. Stop blowing this off.

maw 16y ago
Yes, many probably could. But that doesn't mean that the column's message was primarily about running workshops.
points 16y ago
Doing workshops seems scammy to me. It's like doing popup ads. Sure, you could, but eugh.
- tptacek 16y ago
  What a head-explodey thing to say. Care to elaborate?
  - nkurz 16y ago
    I tend to agree with 'points', so I'll offer my explanation: Doing expensive one-day workshops might be a great way to make money, but it might be damaging to your brand. To me, it shows that the you are doing everything you can to wring maximum profit out of your existing infrastructure rather than concentrating on improving your core product. It has the same feel as a hot experimental band deciding to license their songs for fast-food commercials --- perhaps a good choice financially, but potentially bad for your image. It has a smell of desperation and greed. As to the 'scammy' part, I'm guessing[1] that not many people are paying for these sessions of out pocket. Rather, they convince their employer to pay, and that it's worth it. This presents a conflict of interest if the turns out to be not worth the money. When your boss asks you if the company's $1000 was well spent, and it was your idea to go, one might feel compelled to say 'yes' and even to go again the following year regardless of any price increases. This said, we'll probably be considering such strategies in the future. I have a food business, and while there is no way we could charge $1000/seat, there probably are some things we could do to boost the bottom line. [1] Jason responds below to point out that most of they are paying directly. I'm surprised, but presume he's right!
    - jasonfried 16y ago
      "As to the 'scammy' part, I'm guessing that not many people are paying for these sessions of out pocket. Rather, they convince their employer to pay, and that it's worth it." The majority of the people who attend our workshop do pay out of their own pockets. They are often individual entrepreneurs, business owners, or independent designers/programmers who are looking to learn what we have to teach. Anonymous post-workshop surveys have shown that people feel like $1000 is not only a good deal, but a bargain.
    - Timothee 16y ago
      I see your point, but it seems to me that there's much more to it than that. Sure, some people will give workshops primarily to make money. However, many will also give workshops for the experience of teaching. I have given trainings/workshops a few times and I've found it pretty satisfying to look for the best way to present things so that your audience "gets it" and goes out knowledgeable about the subject at hand. (it was particularly satisfying the very first time, two months after starting at my first job, feeling like I've been dropped off in there, ending realizing that I was indeed able to give that training after all :)) The thing is once you decide to give a workshop, you'll likely charge for it... and the price will be decided by the market somehow.
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
    - tptacek 16y ago
      Workshops damage brands. They smell of desperation and greed. They're like fast-food commercials. They're scammy because they're based on conflicts of interest. They sap energy from your core product. So naturally, you're going to consider doing them in the future. ka-ploooie There goes my brain.
      - nkurz 16y ago
        Yes. Despite having a truly fantastic product, we're struggling to stay in business. It wouldn't be that much of a stretch to say that there have been times that I would consider robbing convenience stores to make payroll. I love making a great product, but hate the constant pressure to compromise my ideals to stay afloat. Every day I keep this business going, I fear that I'm turning into someone that I don't want to be, that I can't respect. But maybe my ideals are wrong, maybe workshops are win-win, maybe we need to consider them even if I don't personally care for them. They're certainly better than some other options! I also don't really hold it against bands when they 'sell out' --- they know their situation better than I do. :)
patio11 16y ago
There is a business in Ogaki which takes over a room at the local tech incubator (cost: ~$10 for 3 hours) and does a workshop on iPhone development every week. I'm told they occasionally need to split into two rooms, because they're filled. Can anyone here even point to Ogaki on a map? Do you know how not-very-hard it is to be the most famous developer in a particular technology in Ogaki? At the local tech incubator, we also put on weekly training events for things like software security, taught by people much less accomplished than anybody on Thomas' team, and we could still pack a room.

pier0 16y ago

The message is "succes makes you an expert at telling other people how successful you are".

pontifier 16y ago

Agreed, I immediately saw my sawdust after reading this article...