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> Where have you seen the poor and homeless treated better? In most countries with functional social security networks. Canada, Germany and Sweden. So while t

> Where have you seen the poor and homeless treated better? In most countries with functional social security networks. Canada, Germany and Sweden. So while the above are leaps and bounds better, they aren't flawless. Canada has lots of mentally ill people on the streets due to _very_ poor mental health care available to them. And Germany and Sweden have people from Romania begging on the streets, since they're part of a group of people that have been historically (and currently are) mistreated in their homeland. > In a country that values individual rights.. If you want people off the streets, offer them free housing. There is even (and remarkably so) an example of this from Utah, where free housing was provided to the ones in need. And the city saved money doing it, since fewer other services were needed as a result. Also, separately, I find this argument to be a bit of a straw man, since the treating homeless people decently and having strong individual rights aren't fundamentally opposed. In America some things are done well collectively, in the interest of everyone, like providing roads.

Johnny555 9y ago
There's some debate over whether or not Utah really did solve their homeless problem: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/kevin-corinth/think-utah-solved-homeles_b_9380860.html https://www.huffingtonpost.com/kevin-corinth/think-utah-solv... https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/apr/27/utah-homeless-shelters-housing-first https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/apr/27/utah-homeles... And even when a region does offer good homeless services, word gets out and more homeless move in: https://www.heraldextra.com/news/local/more-homeless-move-to-utah-county-after-operation-diversion-raids/article_d1b15bdd-a47c-513c-a75a-61d55f3d1c9b.html https://www.heraldextra.com/news/local/more-homeless-move-to...
refurb 9y ago
As someone who lived in Canada, I wouldn't agree they are treated better. Every winter there is a mad rush to get people out of the cold. Vancouver has about as severe a homeless problem as SF. Can't speak to the other two countries.
mantas 9y ago
> And Germany and Sweden have people from Romania begging on the streets, since they're part of a group of people that have been historically (and currently are) mistreated in their homeland. Gypsies is a wee of a special case tbh. They've a very weird honor system that makes it hard to integrate them. We're trying to do that for decades and results are mediocre so far. I've heard crazy stories from people working at NPOs with them. The only thing we didn't try yet is forcibly taking away children and putting them in boarding schools. I know it sounds terrible, but those people just don't want to integrate. Which is why may look mistreated. But in reality it's vice versa - they mistreat anyone else around them. Of course, some gypsies do drop that way of life and integrate. But then they just look like normal citizen. Thus there're little "good gypsies".
- oelmekki 9y ago
  What you describe is pure fascism. And for the elders, maybe we should build camps to hold them? I hear a lot about how this or that part of the population "doesn't integrate". What I never hear about is why it's so important they integrate.
  - viraptor 9y ago
    To start, I think (hope!) the parent didn't suggest that taking children is a good idea. Either human decency should stop that, or at least reading about Australian history... And I assume the grandparent posts were both about Roma people, not Romanians. Why it's important that the part of population integrates is because countries extend both rights and expectations to people. Groups of a specific culture that settle in an area and refuse to live under local laws are a problem. Because child/teen marriages are a problem. Because forcing children to beg for the families is a problem. Because living in conditions where large groups rely on begging is a problem. Etc. How can we say some parents are guilty of child abuse while other parents are just not integrating?
    - oelmekki 9y ago
      That's a good point, there's indeed a problem with mafia-like behavior in Rroma groups. Don't just assume they all rely on begging, though, we see a lot of them in seasonal agriculture, and they make good money there. Regarding difference between rights and expectations, there are two layers, there. There is the laws that apply to anyone with the rights that apply to anyone, and the laws that apply to citizen and the rights that apply to citizen (which rromas are not, most of the time). I'm not a lawyer, but I would tend to think the laws most often apply to everyone and the rights most often apply to citizen, except for basic decency. There's an exception regarding the laws : when a law makes mandatory for a child to go to school, it is usually only about citizens' children. Now, we could certainly ask more of those people to disband mafias and enforce human rights. But I'm not under the impression it's what we try to do, in europe. What I see most of the time is attempts to push them away and to hell with them.
darawk 9y ago
> Also, separately, I find this argument to be a bit of a straw man, since the treating homeless people decently and having strong individual rights aren't fundamentally opposed. In America some things are done well collectively, in the interest of everyone, like providing roads. I believe he was making the argument that, due to principles of individual liberty, the government cannot compel someone who wants to be homeless not to be.

Johnny555 9y ago

There's some debate over whether or not Utah really did solve their homeless problem: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/kevin-corinth/think-utah-solved-homeles_b_9380860.html https://www.huffingtonpost.com/kevin-corinth/think-utah-solv... https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/apr/27/utah-homeless-shelters-housing-first https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/apr/27/utah-homeles... And even when a region does offer good homeless services, word gets out and more homeless move in: https://www.heraldextra.com/news/local/more-homeless-move-to-utah-county-after-operation-diversion-raids/article_d1b15bdd-a47c-513c-a75a-61d55f3d1c9b.html https://www.heraldextra.com/news/local/more-homeless-move-to...

refurb 9y ago

As someone who lived in Canada, I wouldn't agree they are treated better. Every winter there is a mad rush to get people out of the cold. Vancouver has about as severe a homeless problem as SF. Can't speak to the other two countries.

mantas 9y ago

> And Germany and Sweden have people from Romania begging on the streets, since they're part of a group of people that have been historically (and currently are) mistreated in their homeland. Gypsies is a wee of a special case tbh. They've a very weird honor system that makes it hard to integrate them. We're trying to do that for decades and results are mediocre so far. I've heard crazy stories from people working at NPOs with them. The only thing we didn't try yet is forcibly taking away children and putting them in boarding schools. I know it sounds terrible, but those people just don't want to integrate. Which is why may look mistreated. But in reality it's vice versa - they mistreat anyone else around them. Of course, some gypsies do drop that way of life and integrate. But then they just look like normal citizen. Thus there're little "good gypsies".

oelmekki 9y ago
What you describe is pure fascism. And for the elders, maybe we should build camps to hold them? I hear a lot about how this or that part of the population "doesn't integrate". What I never hear about is why it's so important they integrate.
- viraptor 9y ago
  To start, I think (hope!) the parent didn't suggest that taking children is a good idea. Either human decency should stop that, or at least reading about Australian history... And I assume the grandparent posts were both about Roma people, not Romanians. Why it's important that the part of population integrates is because countries extend both rights and expectations to people. Groups of a specific culture that settle in an area and refuse to live under local laws are a problem. Because child/teen marriages are a problem. Because forcing children to beg for the families is a problem. Because living in conditions where large groups rely on begging is a problem. Etc. How can we say some parents are guilty of child abuse while other parents are just not integrating?
  - oelmekki 9y ago
    That's a good point, there's indeed a problem with mafia-like behavior in Rroma groups. Don't just assume they all rely on begging, though, we see a lot of them in seasonal agriculture, and they make good money there. Regarding difference between rights and expectations, there are two layers, there. There is the laws that apply to anyone with the rights that apply to anyone, and the laws that apply to citizen and the rights that apply to citizen (which rromas are not, most of the time). I'm not a lawyer, but I would tend to think the laws most often apply to everyone and the rights most often apply to citizen, except for basic decency. There's an exception regarding the laws : when a law makes mandatory for a child to go to school, it is usually only about citizens' children. Now, we could certainly ask more of those people to disband mafias and enforce human rights. But I'm not under the impression it's what we try to do, in europe. What I see most of the time is attempts to push them away and to hell with them.

darawk 9y ago

> Also, separately, I find this argument to be a bit of a straw man, since the treating homeless people decently and having strong individual rights aren't fundamentally opposed. In America some things are done well collectively, in the interest of everyone, like providing roads. I believe he was making the argument that, due to principles of individual liberty, the government cannot compel someone who wants to be homeless not to be.