4 ms·

> how exactly are you supposed to encourage compliance from people who can't afford to pay fines and penalties? This seems to imply that financial punishment i

> how exactly are you supposed to encourage compliance from people who can't afford to pay fines and penalties? This seems to imply that financial punishment is the only thing that people will react to, and also that compliance is solely a matter of deterrence. I'd argue both are false. You could easily convert tickets into community service etc. Social shaming has made people "compliant" in all sorts of situations for millennia. Handing out a speeding ticket to someone without considering if they'll be able to pay it (i.e. without considering if the punishment is appropriate TM) is making things worse for no good reason.

pjc50 9y ago
I don't know why this is downvoted when it's exactly how it works in a lot of European countries.
stochastic_monk 9y ago
This is a great point. Fines also strike me as a horribly socially unfair punishment. For someone who's affluent, it means nothing at all (giving them a carte blanche), while for someone who's poor, it can be more than everything they have. 10 years in prison or 50 hours of community service, however, exact what appears to have the same effect regardless of who is being punished.
rayiner 9y ago
Community service is forced labor and generally only a punishment imposed for criminal conduct. Imposing it for what should be a civil issue is an escalation. Also, how do you sentence someone to community service if you can’t get them to show up in court?
- black_puppydog 9y ago
  I'm not a lawyer, and not a U.S. citizen, so I can't speak about details regarding the current legal situation about this. Maybe there are obstacles there, I wouldn't know that. I do get the feeling however that we're making two different comparisons here. You seem to be comparing the "do community service" scenario to "pay a fine" scenario. I am comparing the "pay a fine. oh, you can't? then do community service" scenario to "pay a fine. oh, you can't? then go to jail" scenario. Granted, that kind of casy by case justice costs time and effort on the side of the state (i.e. tax payer) but personally, that's just the price of having actual "justice for all".
  - rayiner 9y ago
    Jails are different than prisons. Jail is where someone is held pending a hearing on their case. Prison is where someone is sent once it has been decided they are violating the law. Although other countries use different terminology, most have the same distinction between the two. What happens in these cases is that someone doesn't show up to court. A bench warrant is issued, and they get arrested months later when they get pulled over for speeding or something unrelated, and the police find the warrant. At that point, the court can't immediately drop everything and hear the case. They get put in jail for a day or two until a bail hearing, at which point the court will set a new court date, and decide whether to require the person is required to post bail as a guarantee that they'll show up this time, or whether they'll be held in jail pending the court date. At this point, the judge can't order the person to do community service--they've done nothing wrong other than fail to show up to court, and the only reason they're in jail is the risk that they won't show up for the new court date. Many people can't post the bail, so they sit in jail waiting for their new court date. No matter how lenient you are with debtors, at the end of the day the court needs some way to force someone to participate in the process of deciding what to do. Even if you say "we'll forgive small debts if the debtor is poor," how do you decide that if the debtor won't show up to court?
- pc86 9y ago
  Not to mention the fact that people who don't even have enough money to pay a speeding ticket are generally working several low-pay, part-time jobs. Throwing another 10 hours a week of slavery on top of everything else is not a realistic or appropriate response to what was in all likelihood a fairly minor violation.

pjc50 9y ago

I don't know why this is downvoted when it's exactly how it works in a lot of European countries.

stochastic_monk 9y ago

This is a great point. Fines also strike me as a horribly socially unfair punishment. For someone who's affluent, it means nothing at all (giving them a carte blanche), while for someone who's poor, it can be more than everything they have. 10 years in prison or 50 hours of community service, however, exact what appears to have the same effect regardless of who is being punished.

rayiner 9y ago

Community service is forced labor and generally only a punishment imposed for criminal conduct. Imposing it for what should be a civil issue is an escalation. Also, how do you sentence someone to community service if you can’t get them to show up in court?

black_puppydog 9y ago
I'm not a lawyer, and not a U.S. citizen, so I can't speak about details regarding the current legal situation about this. Maybe there are obstacles there, I wouldn't know that. I do get the feeling however that we're making two different comparisons here. You seem to be comparing the "do community service" scenario to "pay a fine" scenario. I am comparing the "pay a fine. oh, you can't? then do community service" scenario to "pay a fine. oh, you can't? then go to jail" scenario. Granted, that kind of casy by case justice costs time and effort on the side of the state (i.e. tax payer) but personally, that's just the price of having actual "justice for all".
- rayiner 9y ago
  Jails are different than prisons. Jail is where someone is held pending a hearing on their case. Prison is where someone is sent once it has been decided they are violating the law. Although other countries use different terminology, most have the same distinction between the two. What happens in these cases is that someone doesn't show up to court. A bench warrant is issued, and they get arrested months later when they get pulled over for speeding or something unrelated, and the police find the warrant. At that point, the court can't immediately drop everything and hear the case. They get put in jail for a day or two until a bail hearing, at which point the court will set a new court date, and decide whether to require the person is required to post bail as a guarantee that they'll show up this time, or whether they'll be held in jail pending the court date. At this point, the judge can't order the person to do community service--they've done nothing wrong other than fail to show up to court, and the only reason they're in jail is the risk that they won't show up for the new court date. Many people can't post the bail, so they sit in jail waiting for their new court date. No matter how lenient you are with debtors, at the end of the day the court needs some way to force someone to participate in the process of deciding what to do. Even if you say "we'll forgive small debts if the debtor is poor," how do you decide that if the debtor won't show up to court?
pc86 9y ago
Not to mention the fact that people who don't even have enough money to pay a speeding ticket are generally working several low-pay, part-time jobs. Throwing another 10 hours a week of slavery on top of everything else is not a realistic or appropriate response to what was in all likelihood a fairly minor violation.