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Genuine question: what values count as enlightenment values? And who gets the credit for coming up with these values? I heard Pinker on Ezra Klein's podcast and

by wsxcde 9y ago

Genuine question: what values count as enlightenment values? And who gets the credit for coming up with these values? I heard Pinker on Ezra Klein's podcast and he seemed to imply that Gandhi/MLK's non-violent movements were the product of the enlightenment. Isn't that a patently ridiculous claim? I looked up wikipedia to see who the intellectuals of the enlightenment were and it seems many of these people are racists, slave-owners and colonizers who literally thought that Gandhi/MLK were sub-human. Their military philosophy seems to boil down to might is right and their values AFAICT are pretty close to Richard Spencer's. Sure, some of these people were great scientists and politicians, but I'm having a hard time seeing them as moral exemplars.

psyc 9y ago
The enlightenment's values and luminaries are enumerated in any number of sources on the subject. The rest of your comment appears to be a dubious framing, with numerous distortions caused by feats of time-travel within your modern, progressive mind. Within the past 5 years, it has become a necessity - an emergency - to disassociate oneself as far as possible from people, their ideas, their friends, and their friends' friends, at the faintest hint of la problématique. I like to imagine Gandhi and MLK were more mature, and better able to handle the cognitive dissonance in the human mind. 'Outing' Benjamin Franklin is not even a tiny bit like outing Harvey Weinstein, and 'outing' historical figures as racists and sexists is practically content-free, since it's no secret. If social justice enthusiasts continue down the path you seem to be alluding to, you'll wind up burning every book written before 1970, and plunging us into another dark age. If this is not the answer you wanted, my only suggestion is to try to pose your question more thoughtfully.
- watwut 9y ago
  Afaik, there were big discussions about slavery and racism all the time concepts existed. The discussion about some past actors being more racist then others or even actively pushing for slavery while others were not should not be taboo. It is relevant that someone writing about freedom conveniently did not counted whole groups as deserving that freedom in the first place. It is much easier to be for free speech for example, when the group of people most likely to oppose you dont count. Edit: by this logic, you cant critize Robespierre. Or Lenin/Stalin, because they were product of time and built an imperium anyway. It is also relevant that nice sounding definition of freedom was used to defend the slavery or that the rational science at the time was actually exercise in motivated reasoning convenient to speaker (whether practically or just made him feel good and superior) - but not really result of fair unbiased cold look at world.
  - b1daly 9y ago
    The general thrust of “mainstream” thinking on “enlightened” thinkers of the past is that they offer a framework for freedom and justice, however I’m perfectly framed, and in spite of them falling short of living up to the ideals they espoused. To deny the concept of human rights, and the validity of science because some foundational thinkers fell short is ridiculous.
    - watwut 9y ago
      Good thing no one is denying science here. The parent refused to see them as moral exemplars. If mainstream thinking ignores rather large holes in human rights these people espoused, both in theory and practice, then it makes even more sense to point that out. If your framework of freedom boils down to "might is right" in rather large amount of cases and brings unfreedom to big enough amount of people, then it is absolutely relevant while discussing your freedom concept. Exactly as reign of terror is relevant when discussing French revolution ideals.
    - wsxcde 9y ago
      > The general thrust of “mainstream” thinking on “enlightened” thinkers of the past is that they offer a framework for freedom and justice, however I’m perfectly framed, and in spite of them falling short of living up to the ideals they espoused. OK, that's fair. Is the claim that such a framework did not exist before? Or is it that this new framework was somehow "fairer" and closer to our modern ideals of justice than the ones that existed before? Because neither of these claims seems defensible. > To deny the concept of human rights, and the validity of science because some foundational thinkers fell short is ridiculous. But where did I (or anyone else for that matter) deny the concept of human rights or the validity of science?
- wsxcde 9y ago
  The answer I want is a clear explanation of these so called enlightenment values. What I'd also like is for you to stop putting words into my mouth, I never advocated for disregarding all knowledge generated before 1970, nor did I suggest that we must disassociate ourselves from anyone. I just want to point out that the so called values of the enlightenment were never really put into practice. Rule of law and democracy didn't exist for African Americans or colonial citizens of color, the power of nonviolent protest and it's ability to effect change was mostly thanks to leaders who stood in opposition to those who supposedly represented the values of the enlightenment, and the relative peace of the last 60 years is a result of the devastation caused by great wars that were entered into by societies that were supposedly enlightened. I'm just calling bullshit on the notion that the ideals of European nationalism fuelled by the industrial revolution can claim any credit for the social progress we've made as a nation. Technological progress? Sure. Social progress and justice? Not at all.
  - psyc 9y ago
    Well it seems very simple to me. There were different aspects of the enlightenment. The most central one is probably reason over superstition. Some aspects are considered good now, some are not. Just make the distinctions; don't paint the whole thing according to its worst aspects and thinkers. What's the problem?

by wsxcde 9y ago

psyc 9y ago

The enlightenment's values and luminaries are enumerated in any number of sources on the subject. The rest of your comment appears to be a dubious framing, with numerous distortions caused by feats of time-travel within your modern, progressive mind. Within the past 5 years, it has become a necessity - an emergency - to disassociate oneself as far as possible from people, their ideas, their friends, and their friends' friends, at the faintest hint of la problématique. I like to imagine Gandhi and MLK were more mature, and better able to handle the cognitive dissonance in the human mind. 'Outing' Benjamin Franklin is not even a tiny bit like outing Harvey Weinstein, and 'outing' historical figures as racists and sexists is practically content-free, since it's no secret. If social justice enthusiasts continue down the path you seem to be alluding to, you'll wind up burning every book written before 1970, and plunging us into another dark age. If this is not the answer you wanted, my only suggestion is to try to pose your question more thoughtfully.

watwut 9y ago
Afaik, there were big discussions about slavery and racism all the time concepts existed. The discussion about some past actors being more racist then others or even actively pushing for slavery while others were not should not be taboo. It is relevant that someone writing about freedom conveniently did not counted whole groups as deserving that freedom in the first place. It is much easier to be for free speech for example, when the group of people most likely to oppose you dont count. Edit: by this logic, you cant critize Robespierre. Or Lenin/Stalin, because they were product of time and built an imperium anyway. It is also relevant that nice sounding definition of freedom was used to defend the slavery or that the rational science at the time was actually exercise in motivated reasoning convenient to speaker (whether practically or just made him feel good and superior) - but not really result of fair unbiased cold look at world.
- b1daly 9y ago
  The general thrust of “mainstream” thinking on “enlightened” thinkers of the past is that they offer a framework for freedom and justice, however I’m perfectly framed, and in spite of them falling short of living up to the ideals they espoused. To deny the concept of human rights, and the validity of science because some foundational thinkers fell short is ridiculous.
  - watwut 9y ago
    Good thing no one is denying science here. The parent refused to see them as moral exemplars. If mainstream thinking ignores rather large holes in human rights these people espoused, both in theory and practice, then it makes even more sense to point that out. If your framework of freedom boils down to "might is right" in rather large amount of cases and brings unfreedom to big enough amount of people, then it is absolutely relevant while discussing your freedom concept. Exactly as reign of terror is relevant when discussing French revolution ideals.
  - wsxcde 9y ago
    > The general thrust of “mainstream” thinking on “enlightened” thinkers of the past is that they offer a framework for freedom and justice, however I’m perfectly framed, and in spite of them falling short of living up to the ideals they espoused. OK, that's fair. Is the claim that such a framework did not exist before? Or is it that this new framework was somehow "fairer" and closer to our modern ideals of justice than the ones that existed before? Because neither of these claims seems defensible. > To deny the concept of human rights, and the validity of science because some foundational thinkers fell short is ridiculous. But where did I (or anyone else for that matter) deny the concept of human rights or the validity of science?
wsxcde 9y ago
The answer I want is a clear explanation of these so called enlightenment values. What I'd also like is for you to stop putting words into my mouth, I never advocated for disregarding all knowledge generated before 1970, nor did I suggest that we must disassociate ourselves from anyone. I just want to point out that the so called values of the enlightenment were never really put into practice. Rule of law and democracy didn't exist for African Americans or colonial citizens of color, the power of nonviolent protest and it's ability to effect change was mostly thanks to leaders who stood in opposition to those who supposedly represented the values of the enlightenment, and the relative peace of the last 60 years is a result of the devastation caused by great wars that were entered into by societies that were supposedly enlightened. I'm just calling bullshit on the notion that the ideals of European nationalism fuelled by the industrial revolution can claim any credit for the social progress we've made as a nation. Technological progress? Sure. Social progress and justice? Not at all.
- psyc 9y ago
  Well it seems very simple to me. There were different aspects of the enlightenment. The most central one is probably reason over superstition. Some aspects are considered good now, some are not. Just make the distinctions; don't paint the whole thing according to its worst aspects and thinkers. What's the problem?