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> I worked in a job that seems to match the description of computer network architect in high school. I worked a job like this in high school. Pretty sure I co

> I worked in a job that seems to match the description of computer network architect in high school. I worked a job like this in high school. Pretty sure I could've done it earlier, and learning the job was pretty easy. In contrast, I did some software work in high school as well and was out of my depth (thankfully it worked out). > Does a job that does not require teaching (self or otherwise) even exist? I guess it's a matter of degree.

randomdata 9y ago
> I guess it's a matter of degree. Literally! But, jokes aside, how is that amount measured? Software development (which I also had a job doing during my time in high school) seemed quite approachable. I've certainly become a better developer over time (along with everything I've continued with), but I'm still proud of what I accomplished back then. I don't feel that it was out of my depth. I was able to deliver real business value and the employer was happy. Honestly, I find software development has been one of the easier jobs (in terms of knowledge and ability required) that I have had. Granted, I haven't had jobs in every industry out there. I expect there are easier jobs. But software development does not strike me as one that meets the necessary degree here. If someone in high school can walk into the job and deliver real business value, it does not feel like a "degree required" job to me. In my opinion, the defining factor here seems to be how desperate employers are. On the farm, we are often quite desperate for help. Timing is critical. Leave the crop out for an extra week and you won't have a crop at all. As such, farm work is considered low-skilled work since employers have no room to be choosy. You take what you can get and deal with what comes from it. It is still better than losing the crop. Contrast that with software developers, where there is no real pressure to hire people. Who really cares if a feature sits in the backlog for a year? It will still be there next year. That allows employers to be more picky. Don't like your current applicants? Just wait longer. As such, this industry is labeled high-skilled work. If there is any pressure to get the job done, it comes from the competition trying to do the same as you, and they are just as likely to have hiring problems in those circumstances. In reality, the amount of actual skill necessary between these two examples is probably quite comparable.
- throwawayjava 9y ago
  > Software development seemed quite approachable... software development does not strike me as one that meets the necessary degree here The job title "software developer" is almost meaningless in the context of this conversation given the extraordinarily high variance in what that job title actually entails. The software development job I had in high school required knowing what for loops are and knowing how to google web shit. The technical content was almost non-existent. The difficult part of that type of job is managing relationships with customers, knowing how to estimate deadlines and working in a team. I would consider most web development a mid-tech job. At my last software job, I used graduate-level mathematics almost every day. The "at my desk" hours of the day were 60% reading mathematics papers and 40% implementing that stuff. Along with all the soft skills, of course. 100% of the technical problems I faced were not a Google search away, because I was the first person solving those problems. As far as BLS is concerned, those are the same jobs. Clearly, they are at two extremes of the "skills" spectrum. And the compensation is wildly different. And the availability of talent for these jobs is radically different. But BLS doesn't see that because the job title is the same. Hmph. > where there is no real pressure to hire people Again, a HUGE "it depends"!
  - randomdata 9y ago
    > The "at my desk" hours of the day were 60% reading mathematics papers Are you even appropriately labeled a software developer if that is how you spend the bulk of your time? I'm not convinced you are. The 40% definitely sounds like software development, but there are plenty of jobs where development is part of a larger job that are not given the software developer label. The farm, for instance, involves writing some software as a minor part of the job. It still gets the farming title, not software development. And can we really classify a job where you literally spend most of your time learning how to do the job a "degree required" job? Degree required to me at least implies that you need to already know how to do the job before you are hired. The BLS provides this information to indicate what is needed to get a job. Anyone can read up on how to do something while they are already on the job. > Again, a HUGE "it depends"! There are always outliers. We have to be observing the typical or average case for this discussion to have any meaning.

randomdata 9y ago

> I guess it's a matter of degree. Literally! But, jokes aside, how is that amount measured? Software development (which I also had a job doing during my time in high school) seemed quite approachable. I've certainly become a better developer over time (along with everything I've continued with), but I'm still proud of what I accomplished back then. I don't feel that it was out of my depth. I was able to deliver real business value and the employer was happy. Honestly, I find software development has been one of the easier jobs (in terms of knowledge and ability required) that I have had. Granted, I haven't had jobs in every industry out there. I expect there are easier jobs. But software development does not strike me as one that meets the necessary degree here. If someone in high school can walk into the job and deliver real business value, it does not feel like a "degree required" job to me. In my opinion, the defining factor here seems to be how desperate employers are. On the farm, we are often quite desperate for help. Timing is critical. Leave the crop out for an extra week and you won't have a crop at all. As such, farm work is considered low-skilled work since employers have no room to be choosy. You take what you can get and deal with what comes from it. It is still better than losing the crop. Contrast that with software developers, where there is no real pressure to hire people. Who really cares if a feature sits in the backlog for a year? It will still be there next year. That allows employers to be more picky. Don't like your current applicants? Just wait longer. As such, this industry is labeled high-skilled work. If there is any pressure to get the job done, it comes from the competition trying to do the same as you, and they are just as likely to have hiring problems in those circumstances. In reality, the amount of actual skill necessary between these two examples is probably quite comparable.

throwawayjava 9y ago
> Software development seemed quite approachable... software development does not strike me as one that meets the necessary degree here The job title "software developer" is almost meaningless in the context of this conversation given the extraordinarily high variance in what that job title actually entails. The software development job I had in high school required knowing what for loops are and knowing how to google web shit. The technical content was almost non-existent. The difficult part of that type of job is managing relationships with customers, knowing how to estimate deadlines and working in a team. I would consider most web development a mid-tech job. At my last software job, I used graduate-level mathematics almost every day. The "at my desk" hours of the day were 60% reading mathematics papers and 40% implementing that stuff. Along with all the soft skills, of course. 100% of the technical problems I faced were not a Google search away, because I was the first person solving those problems. As far as BLS is concerned, those are the same jobs. Clearly, they are at two extremes of the "skills" spectrum. And the compensation is wildly different. And the availability of talent for these jobs is radically different. But BLS doesn't see that because the job title is the same. Hmph. > where there is no real pressure to hire people Again, a HUGE "it depends"!
- randomdata 9y ago
  > The "at my desk" hours of the day were 60% reading mathematics papers Are you even appropriately labeled a software developer if that is how you spend the bulk of your time? I'm not convinced you are. The 40% definitely sounds like software development, but there are plenty of jobs where development is part of a larger job that are not given the software developer label. The farm, for instance, involves writing some software as a minor part of the job. It still gets the farming title, not software development. And can we really classify a job where you literally spend most of your time learning how to do the job a "degree required" job? Degree required to me at least implies that you need to already know how to do the job before you are hired. The BLS provides this information to indicate what is needed to get a job. Anyone can read up on how to do something while they are already on the job. > Again, a HUGE "it depends"! There are always outliers. We have to be observing the typical or average case for this discussion to have any meaning.