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> According to the article, that is no longer the case I think this thread is confusing "degree or equivalent knowledge" with "no really honest to god you don'

> According to the article, that is no longer the case I think this thread is confusing "degree or equivalent knowledge" with "no really honest to god you don't need a degree". Mid-tech is the latter. Consider the examples given in the article: "...computer systems analyst, computer network architects, and support specialist..." The Midwest is not replete with jobs held by self-taught software engineers. It's replete with jobs (dubbed mid-tech) that don't require the self-teaching in the first place.

randomdata 9y ago
> It's replete with jobs (dubbed mid-tech) that don't require the self-teaching in the first place. I worked in a job that seems to match the description of computer network architect in high school. It certainly required a fair amount of self-teaching (in my case; I suppose one could replace that with college or on-the-job instruction). Knowledge provided by a source of some kind was necessary. One is typically not born knowing how to do that type of work. Does a job that does not require teaching (self or otherwise) even exist? I have family in the manufacturing business that I occasionally help out with when they are short-staffed as a favor. From the outside the job looks about as menial as it gets, but actually stepping in and helping leaves me appreciating what those people are capable of doing with the knowledge they have. There is no way, with my limited knowledge and ability in that industry, I'd be hired to work for them if they weren't desperate. I farm on the side and that is the most intense ramp-up of knowledge requirements I have ever experienced. That experience has been like learning CS and software engineering, forgetting everything you learned, and repeating several more times. And still feeling like you don't know what you are doing. I've been farming for 10 years now and I still feel like a newbie. After 10 years of software development, while I recognized that there is still more to learn, I at least felt pretty confident in having progressed in my knowledge and abilities to a more advanced level. I don't know that anyone who claims farming requires a degree. If degree here simply means requires an education of some kind, not specifically a degree from an accredited institution, then I'm not sure that there is a job out there that doesn't match that description in SV, the mid-west, or anywhere else. The only explanation here seems to be the expectations of employers, who trend towards setting more arbitrary expectations as the competition for the work increases. If you only have one applicant, you simply can't be choosy about who you hire.
- throwawayjava 9y ago
  > I worked in a job that seems to match the description of computer network architect in high school. I worked a job like this in high school. Pretty sure I could've done it earlier, and learning the job was pretty easy. In contrast, I did some software work in high school as well and was out of my depth (thankfully it worked out). > Does a job that does not require teaching (self or otherwise) even exist? I guess it's a matter of degree.
  - randomdata 9y ago
    > I guess it's a matter of degree. Literally! But, jokes aside, how is that amount measured? Software development (which I also had a job doing during my time in high school) seemed quite approachable. I've certainly become a better developer over time (along with everything I've continued with), but I'm still proud of what I accomplished back then. I don't feel that it was out of my depth. I was able to deliver real business value and the employer was happy. Honestly, I find software development has been one of the easier jobs (in terms of knowledge and ability required) that I have had. Granted, I haven't had jobs in every industry out there. I expect there are easier jobs. But software development does not strike me as one that meets the necessary degree here. If someone in high school can walk into the job and deliver real business value, it does not feel like a "degree required" job to me. In my opinion, the defining factor here seems to be how desperate employers are. On the farm, we are often quite desperate for help. Timing is critical. Leave the crop out for an extra week and you won't have a crop at all. As such, farm work is considered low-skilled work since employers have no room to be choosy. You take what you can get and deal with what comes from it. It is still better than losing the crop. Contrast that with software developers, where there is no real pressure to hire people. Who really cares if a feature sits in the backlog for a year? It will still be there next year. That allows employers to be more picky. Don't like your current applicants? Just wait longer. As such, this industry is labeled high-skilled work. If there is any pressure to get the job done, it comes from the competition trying to do the same as you, and they are just as likely to have hiring problems in those circumstances. In reality, the amount of actual skill necessary between these two examples is probably quite comparable.

randomdata 9y ago

> It's replete with jobs (dubbed mid-tech) that don't require the self-teaching in the first place. I worked in a job that seems to match the description of computer network architect in high school. It certainly required a fair amount of self-teaching (in my case; I suppose one could replace that with college or on-the-job instruction). Knowledge provided by a source of some kind was necessary. One is typically not born knowing how to do that type of work. Does a job that does not require teaching (self or otherwise) even exist? I have family in the manufacturing business that I occasionally help out with when they are short-staffed as a favor. From the outside the job looks about as menial as it gets, but actually stepping in and helping leaves me appreciating what those people are capable of doing with the knowledge they have. There is no way, with my limited knowledge and ability in that industry, I'd be hired to work for them if they weren't desperate. I farm on the side and that is the most intense ramp-up of knowledge requirements I have ever experienced. That experience has been like learning CS and software engineering, forgetting everything you learned, and repeating several more times. And still feeling like you don't know what you are doing. I've been farming for 10 years now and I still feel like a newbie. After 10 years of software development, while I recognized that there is still more to learn, I at least felt pretty confident in having progressed in my knowledge and abilities to a more advanced level. I don't know that anyone who claims farming requires a degree. If degree here simply means requires an education of some kind, not specifically a degree from an accredited institution, then I'm not sure that there is a job out there that doesn't match that description in SV, the mid-west, or anywhere else. The only explanation here seems to be the expectations of employers, who trend towards setting more arbitrary expectations as the competition for the work increases. If you only have one applicant, you simply can't be choosy about who you hire.

throwawayjava 9y ago
> I worked in a job that seems to match the description of computer network architect in high school. I worked a job like this in high school. Pretty sure I could've done it earlier, and learning the job was pretty easy. In contrast, I did some software work in high school as well and was out of my depth (thankfully it worked out). > Does a job that does not require teaching (self or otherwise) even exist? I guess it's a matter of degree.
- randomdata 9y ago
  > I guess it's a matter of degree. Literally! But, jokes aside, how is that amount measured? Software development (which I also had a job doing during my time in high school) seemed quite approachable. I've certainly become a better developer over time (along with everything I've continued with), but I'm still proud of what I accomplished back then. I don't feel that it was out of my depth. I was able to deliver real business value and the employer was happy. Honestly, I find software development has been one of the easier jobs (in terms of knowledge and ability required) that I have had. Granted, I haven't had jobs in every industry out there. I expect there are easier jobs. But software development does not strike me as one that meets the necessary degree here. If someone in high school can walk into the job and deliver real business value, it does not feel like a "degree required" job to me. In my opinion, the defining factor here seems to be how desperate employers are. On the farm, we are often quite desperate for help. Timing is critical. Leave the crop out for an extra week and you won't have a crop at all. As such, farm work is considered low-skilled work since employers have no room to be choosy. You take what you can get and deal with what comes from it. It is still better than losing the crop. Contrast that with software developers, where there is no real pressure to hire people. Who really cares if a feature sits in the backlog for a year? It will still be there next year. That allows employers to be more picky. Don't like your current applicants? Just wait longer. As such, this industry is labeled high-skilled work. If there is any pressure to get the job done, it comes from the competition trying to do the same as you, and they are just as likely to have hiring problems in those circumstances. In reality, the amount of actual skill necessary between these two examples is probably quite comparable.