7 ms·

> people will walk, bike or take the train rather than drive. All three are preferable to being stuck in traffic. Maybe for you but my girlfriend could write

by mrep 9y ago

> people will walk, bike or take the train rather than drive. All three are preferable to being stuck in traffic. Maybe for you but my girlfriend could write a book about all of the harassment she has received from random strangers in Seattle. She has even been assaulted which is why we are now car shopping after trying to go without one for 2 years and that is just so she can feel safe traveling. She would easily drive multi hour commutes to avoid having our future kids risk/deal with what she experiences while walking around downtown.

tmnvix 9y ago
I understand that this might seem rational from an individual's perspective but to exclude your family from society in this way is a tragedy and does not seem like any kind of solution to me.
- yodon 9y ago
  Moving out to the suburbs when you have kids is a tragedy? That’s some serious first world definition of tragedy.
  - candiodari 9y ago
    I think they mean that blocking problems that would prevent the implementation of their favorite policy are the tragedies. Public transport does not work, and this is just one more reason why. Every few years the police feels the need to spend a month or two catching pickpockets (or worse) on public transport. Train stations in all the big cities are hotbeds of criminal activity. That is a major problem that is not, and probably won't ever be, solved. For me personally public transport fails in 3 massive ways: 1) public transport means I cannot do groceries, shopping for furniture, tvs or other big goods, move houses, ... so I still need a car, public transport or not. 2) governments just don't build out public transport. Even in places with "excellent" public transport, when I pass there (the Netherlands, for example), there are severe capacity problems that COULD have been solved, but aren't. In many places like London or New York, there aren't capacity problems, you're actually unlikely to NOT be delayed at some point. 3) it's not actually cheaper once you take into account that you have to bring 2 kids to school, then go to work. Taking the cost/inconvenience/risk of public transport doesn't even provide a monetary or time reward. This also means that using public transport for family trips is out : driving across Europe (e.g. Netherlands -> South of France) for a weekend or holiday ... train is a LOT more expensive than using a car. (That said, it can provide a big time advantage and I will use it in that case, but I still much prefer a car) Some reading on the subject: http://www.uwgb.edu/DutchS/PSEUDOSC/MassTransit.HTM http://www.uwgb.edu/DutchS/PSEUDOSC/MassTransit.HTM https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon/2013/03/06/top-eight-reasons-people-give-up-on-public-transit/#2c059fe4fd84 https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon/2013/03/06/top-eigh...
    - stuaxo 9y ago
      I don't recognise this version of public transport you talk about. I've never had a car and moved place many times, yes it means hiring a man with a van, but my things wouldn't fit in a car anyway. I haven't seen much crime in stations apart from fare dodging, yes there might be pickpockets, but probably not more than other places outside in London. You're pretty safe, there is good lighting and staffing and cameras everywhere.
      - ergothus 9y ago
        The public transport described seems very focused on American systems. Saying "public transport doesn't work" is far easier to defend if one only looks at America, where a number of elements (distance, jurisdictions, influence of car manufacturers, cultural perceptions, cultural priorities) are different than many other countries/regions.
    - TheCoelacanth 9y ago
      > shopping for furniture, tvs or other big goods Those things can be delivered. Often for free, almost always for less than it would cost to park a car in a city for a single month. > move houses You can't do that in a normal sized car. Are you suggesting that every person should own their own truck? Unless you are moving every month it makes more sense just to rent one.
    - RhysU 9y ago
      > Public transport does not work, and this is just one more reason why. For whom? Works surprisingly well for my family aside from the 23 going from Manhattan into Brooklyn on the weekends.
  - tmnvix 9y ago
    No. I mean that abandoning the public domain is a tragedy.
- mrep 9y ago
  I agree that it is a tragedy and it is also a tragedy how much resources we devote towards computer/software security. There are tons of similar best practice inefficient solutions to society's problems in order to deal with the malicious actors because nobody has solved this problem and I doubt anyone ever will. Do you have an idea for how to stop people from acting maliciously? Considering how subjective that question is, I cannot think of one (for a democracy at least).
  - true_religion 9y ago
    > Do you have an idea for how to stop people from acting maliciously? Yes,cultural homogeneity results in lower overall levels of malicious actors and free riders. However, in the USA the only way to get such homogeneity is to (a) wait a long time for communications and migration to turn soften differences or (b) create a culture out of whole cloth, and use propaganda to spread it to the young.
    - mrep 9y ago
      Oof, upvote because that might actually work but I feel like that is the type of idea that will get you damore'd [0] on the west cost. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=16410740&goto=threads%3Fnext%3D16411266%26id%3Dmrep%2316410740 https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=16410740&goto=threads%...
      - dismantlethesun 9y ago
        I don't really support that solution however. I am the sort to allow for freedom at the cost of safety in most cases.
    - ulisesrmzroche 9y ago
      Lol
  - tmnvix 9y ago
    Like with helicopter parenting, I think that by trying to avoid risk in this way you are giving up more than you are gaining - even though in isolation this might seem like the rational choice. If everyone took your approach we would end up as a sharply segregated society where the public domain becomes the preserve of 'malicious actors' and those without the ability to avoid it. That would be a classic dystopia. These places exist. Seattle should not be one of them. Better to stand your ground in the public domain despite the risks. Your presence will make it a better and safer place for everyone.
echevil 9y ago
That’s a separate problem to solve. Trains in lots of countries are both clean and perfectly safe.
s0rce 9y ago
That seems like an outlier, while harassment is sadly commonplace, I know many women in SF/Oakland (arguably worse than Seattle) and they do not have enough issues with harassment on public transit to prevent them from safely using it.
- mrep 9y ago
  "But is it actually an outlier or is that just what you have heard because every women I have talked to has been harrassed on the street. Women just don't talk about it with men because they usually ensue even more harassment saying it happens" AKA: #metoo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me_Too_movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me_Too_movement - My girlfriend's response after showing her this thread
  - ergothus 9y ago
    This is almost certainly an issue. I'm in Seattle and am happy with the bus experience itself, though unhappy with the coverage. But I'm white, straight, and male and thus gifted with blissful ignorance of many of the worst problems (and likely unknowingly support some of the problems). FWIW tell your girlfriend that it sucks she's has these experiences and I'm glad you've shared the problem because I hadn't even thought about that aspect of bussing. I suspect some routes are dramatically worse than others. When I moved here I loved my bus at the time (the 41 - ran seemingly every 15 mins, had very few stops to slow it down) but my coworkers warned to avoid (whichever route) that ran to the methadone clinic, both for the constant stopping and for the odds of bad/awkward passengers. My wife has not told me of any particularly bad experiences, but she busses less often than I do and I have no idea what normal life is like for her when I'm not around, so I have no idea if her bus experience would count as "fine" by my expectations.
    - ergothus 9y ago
      ...As a topical follow-up, I just confirmed with my wife her Seattle bus experiences, and discovered a few points: * She has seen issues, but "only" had a few herself. "I'm not pretty enough to be harassed" is a crushing one sentence summary of the existence of harassment, the objectification of women, and what we've done to womens' self-confidence. * She reminded me of an issue I was present for - a guy was loudly declaring how horrible women (he used a number of other terms too) were. For me it was just extremely awkward, and I never registered how a woman would feel about her safety in the future after seeing that. My wife said that she wasn't afraid at the time, because I was present and several other men on the bus were telling him to sit down and shut up, but that she would definitely be influenced by this if she were boarding a bus that was only lightly occupied. This tells me how much men miss about the atmosphere for women even when present. * She mentioned that she usually doesn't take the bus downtown when traveling alone anymore because of regularly feeling too tense when she did. I hadn't really registered that. (in my partial defense, doing this when alone meant I wasn't around to see it, but it still seems a huge thing for me to miss). * She validates that some routes are more problematic than others. Heading to Harborview is worse than heading to Convention Place, as an example.
ShabbosGoy 9y ago
I’m sorry for your girlfriend’s experience. If it makes you feel any better, it cuts both ways. For example, I was in an Uber Pool yesterday in SF. My driver picks up the next passengers (two women), and they refuse to get in after asking what my name is. (Who even asks that?!) They cancel, and we pick up another passenger who’s also female. Keep in mind that my driver and I are both of Indian descent. She instantaneously showed signs of fear and pretended to be asleep while throwing herself on me. I felt a mixture of pity and anger. Mostly anger though, why would you assume that two brown guys are going to rape you? Not to trivialize what happens to women, but it’s certainly an odd reaction to have. In short, I’m glad I don’t live in SF anymore. I thought things were bad in 2015-2016, but what happens there now is much, much worse.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- candiodari 9y ago
  > why would you assume that two brown guys are going to rape you? Not to trivialize what happens to women, but it’s certainly an odd reaction to have. Because of the extreme cost of a false negative, ...
  - ergothus 9y ago
    I wish i could give you more votes. Without race the equation says high if still small chance of something very bad happening vs guaranteed delay but large percentage decrease in odds of a very bad result. Add in unconscious bias (by race or culture) and the risk seems larger before even without explicitly racist thoughts. Experience what women do for as long as women do, and the odds rank much higher than they do to a man making that evaluation. I'm sure women sharing stories within their cohort for mutual awareness (odds that a woman has heard more horror stories about women in uber/lyft the a man has heard are higher) further alter the different cost/benefit results by gender, though that doesn't say their calculations are unrealistic, just different. I'm guessing many men make subconscious choices about what is "safer" (locking your door, deciding where to park, not flashing any wad of money you might have, etc.) but are baffled that women would do so for decisions where a man doesn't (I know I have been) which just highlights how our culture hasn't discussed the threats to/experiences of the various genders.

by mrep 9y ago

tmnvix 9y ago

I understand that this might seem rational from an individual's perspective but to exclude your family from society in this way is a tragedy and does not seem like any kind of solution to me.

yodon 9y ago
Moving out to the suburbs when you have kids is a tragedy? That’s some serious first world definition of tragedy.
- candiodari 9y ago
  I think they mean that blocking problems that would prevent the implementation of their favorite policy are the tragedies. Public transport does not work, and this is just one more reason why. Every few years the police feels the need to spend a month or two catching pickpockets (or worse) on public transport. Train stations in all the big cities are hotbeds of criminal activity. That is a major problem that is not, and probably won't ever be, solved. For me personally public transport fails in 3 massive ways: 1) public transport means I cannot do groceries, shopping for furniture, tvs or other big goods, move houses, ... so I still need a car, public transport or not. 2) governments just don't build out public transport. Even in places with "excellent" public transport, when I pass there (the Netherlands, for example), there are severe capacity problems that COULD have been solved, but aren't. In many places like London or New York, there aren't capacity problems, you're actually unlikely to NOT be delayed at some point. 3) it's not actually cheaper once you take into account that you have to bring 2 kids to school, then go to work. Taking the cost/inconvenience/risk of public transport doesn't even provide a monetary or time reward. This also means that using public transport for family trips is out : driving across Europe (e.g. Netherlands -> South of France) for a weekend or holiday ... train is a LOT more expensive than using a car. (That said, it can provide a big time advantage and I will use it in that case, but I still much prefer a car) Some reading on the subject: http://www.uwgb.edu/DutchS/PSEUDOSC/MassTransit.HTM http://www.uwgb.edu/DutchS/PSEUDOSC/MassTransit.HTM https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon/2013/03/06/top-eight-reasons-people-give-up-on-public-transit/#2c059fe4fd84 https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon/2013/03/06/top-eigh...
  - stuaxo 9y ago
    I don't recognise this version of public transport you talk about. I've never had a car and moved place many times, yes it means hiring a man with a van, but my things wouldn't fit in a car anyway. I haven't seen much crime in stations apart from fare dodging, yes there might be pickpockets, but probably not more than other places outside in London. You're pretty safe, there is good lighting and staffing and cameras everywhere.
    - ergothus 9y ago
      The public transport described seems very focused on American systems. Saying "public transport doesn't work" is far easier to defend if one only looks at America, where a number of elements (distance, jurisdictions, influence of car manufacturers, cultural perceptions, cultural priorities) are different than many other countries/regions.
  - TheCoelacanth 9y ago
    > shopping for furniture, tvs or other big goods Those things can be delivered. Often for free, almost always for less than it would cost to park a car in a city for a single month. > move houses You can't do that in a normal sized car. Are you suggesting that every person should own their own truck? Unless you are moving every month it makes more sense just to rent one.
  - RhysU 9y ago
    > Public transport does not work, and this is just one more reason why. For whom? Works surprisingly well for my family aside from the 23 going from Manhattan into Brooklyn on the weekends.
- tmnvix 9y ago
  No. I mean that abandoning the public domain is a tragedy.
mrep 9y ago
I agree that it is a tragedy and it is also a tragedy how much resources we devote towards computer/software security. There are tons of similar best practice inefficient solutions to society's problems in order to deal with the malicious actors because nobody has solved this problem and I doubt anyone ever will. Do you have an idea for how to stop people from acting maliciously? Considering how subjective that question is, I cannot think of one (for a democracy at least).
- true_religion 9y ago
  > Do you have an idea for how to stop people from acting maliciously? Yes,cultural homogeneity results in lower overall levels of malicious actors and free riders. However, in the USA the only way to get such homogeneity is to (a) wait a long time for communications and migration to turn soften differences or (b) create a culture out of whole cloth, and use propaganda to spread it to the young.
  - mrep 9y ago
    Oof, upvote because that might actually work but I feel like that is the type of idea that will get you damore'd [0] on the west cost. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=16410740&goto=threads%3Fnext%3D16411266%26id%3Dmrep%2316410740 https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=16410740&goto=threads%...
    - dismantlethesun 9y ago
      I don't really support that solution however. I am the sort to allow for freedom at the cost of safety in most cases.
  - ulisesrmzroche 9y ago
    Lol
- tmnvix 9y ago
  Like with helicopter parenting, I think that by trying to avoid risk in this way you are giving up more than you are gaining - even though in isolation this might seem like the rational choice. If everyone took your approach we would end up as a sharply segregated society where the public domain becomes the preserve of 'malicious actors' and those without the ability to avoid it. That would be a classic dystopia. These places exist. Seattle should not be one of them. Better to stand your ground in the public domain despite the risks. Your presence will make it a better and safer place for everyone.

echevil 9y ago

That’s a separate problem to solve. Trains in lots of countries are both clean and perfectly safe.

s0rce 9y ago

That seems like an outlier, while harassment is sadly commonplace, I know many women in SF/Oakland (arguably worse than Seattle) and they do not have enough issues with harassment on public transit to prevent them from safely using it.

mrep 9y ago
"But is it actually an outlier or is that just what you have heard because every women I have talked to has been harrassed on the street. Women just don't talk about it with men because they usually ensue even more harassment saying it happens" AKA: #metoo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me_Too_movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me_Too_movement - My girlfriend's response after showing her this thread
- ergothus 9y ago
  This is almost certainly an issue. I'm in Seattle and am happy with the bus experience itself, though unhappy with the coverage. But I'm white, straight, and male and thus gifted with blissful ignorance of many of the worst problems (and likely unknowingly support some of the problems). FWIW tell your girlfriend that it sucks she's has these experiences and I'm glad you've shared the problem because I hadn't even thought about that aspect of bussing. I suspect some routes are dramatically worse than others. When I moved here I loved my bus at the time (the 41 - ran seemingly every 15 mins, had very few stops to slow it down) but my coworkers warned to avoid (whichever route) that ran to the methadone clinic, both for the constant stopping and for the odds of bad/awkward passengers. My wife has not told me of any particularly bad experiences, but she busses less often than I do and I have no idea what normal life is like for her when I'm not around, so I have no idea if her bus experience would count as "fine" by my expectations.
  - ergothus 9y ago
    ...As a topical follow-up, I just confirmed with my wife her Seattle bus experiences, and discovered a few points: * She has seen issues, but "only" had a few herself. "I'm not pretty enough to be harassed" is a crushing one sentence summary of the existence of harassment, the objectification of women, and what we've done to womens' self-confidence. * She reminded me of an issue I was present for - a guy was loudly declaring how horrible women (he used a number of other terms too) were. For me it was just extremely awkward, and I never registered how a woman would feel about her safety in the future after seeing that. My wife said that she wasn't afraid at the time, because I was present and several other men on the bus were telling him to sit down and shut up, but that she would definitely be influenced by this if she were boarding a bus that was only lightly occupied. This tells me how much men miss about the atmosphere for women even when present. * She mentioned that she usually doesn't take the bus downtown when traveling alone anymore because of regularly feeling too tense when she did. I hadn't really registered that. (in my partial defense, doing this when alone meant I wasn't around to see it, but it still seems a huge thing for me to miss). * She validates that some routes are more problematic than others. Heading to Harborview is worse than heading to Convention Place, as an example.

ShabbosGoy 9y ago

I’m sorry for your girlfriend’s experience. If it makes you feel any better, it cuts both ways. For example, I was in an Uber Pool yesterday in SF. My driver picks up the next passengers (two women), and they refuse to get in after asking what my name is. (Who even asks that?!) They cancel, and we pick up another passenger who’s also female. Keep in mind that my driver and I are both of Indian descent. She instantaneously showed signs of fear and pretended to be asleep while throwing herself on me. I felt a mixture of pity and anger. Mostly anger though, why would you assume that two brown guys are going to rape you? Not to trivialize what happens to women, but it’s certainly an odd reaction to have. In short, I’m glad I don’t live in SF anymore. I thought things were bad in 2015-2016, but what happens there now is much, much worse.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
candiodari 9y ago
> why would you assume that two brown guys are going to rape you? Not to trivialize what happens to women, but it’s certainly an odd reaction to have. Because of the extreme cost of a false negative, ...
- ergothus 9y ago
  I wish i could give you more votes. Without race the equation says high if still small chance of something very bad happening vs guaranteed delay but large percentage decrease in odds of a very bad result. Add in unconscious bias (by race or culture) and the risk seems larger before even without explicitly racist thoughts. Experience what women do for as long as women do, and the odds rank much higher than they do to a man making that evaluation. I'm sure women sharing stories within their cohort for mutual awareness (odds that a woman has heard more horror stories about women in uber/lyft the a man has heard are higher) further alter the different cost/benefit results by gender, though that doesn't say their calculations are unrealistic, just different. I'm guessing many men make subconscious choices about what is "safer" (locking your door, deciding where to park, not flashing any wad of money you might have, etc.) but are baffled that women would do so for decisions where a man doesn't (I know I have been) which just highlights how our culture hasn't discussed the threats to/experiences of the various genders.