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It's kind of interesting that that's now a distinguishing factor from SV, since that used to be seen as one of the defining aspects of the Valley's take on tech

It's kind of interesting that that's now a distinguishing factor from SV, since that used to be seen as one of the defining aspects of the Valley's take on tech. While you needed a degree to work in "east coast" tech like IBM or Bell Labs (ideally a masters or PhD) the West Coast ethos more idealized a kind of Woz/Jobs style college dropout lifestyle. Although I realize the latter is not precisely "blue collar" either.

bdcravens 9y ago
> the West Coast ethos more idealized a kind of Woz/Jobs style college dropout lifestyle I think this is romanticized. Many startups require college degrees, and the crazy algorithm interviews really aren't passable without a strong CS background. Hell, Woz probably wouldn't have passed one of those interviews (and Jobs wasn't really a developer though he had some early technical roles)
- closeparen 9y ago
  >crazy algorithm interviews really aren't passable without a strong CS background. Algorithms is one class.
  - kenhwang 9y ago
    Where did you go where it's only one class? My university (quarter system) required 4 minimum.
  - bdcravens 9y ago
    I was speaking somewhat in general, with "algorithm" being {crazy_computer_science_problem} (when you're interviewing for a React or Rails gig no less)
  - richardknop 9y ago
    Maybe basics. To go deeper it could be many more classes, 4-5 easily. It just depends how deep and wide you want to go. You can't do more then basic overview of couple of standard algorithms in one class tbh.
    - closeparen 9y ago
      Which universities have multiple semesters of algorithms as standard undergrad curriculum?
      - richardknop 9y ago
        That was besides my point (there probably are universities like that). What I was trying to point out was that a class of algorithms might not be enough to prepare you for some hardcore algorithmic interviews out there that go into lot of detail you probably didn't learn in that one class or throw some more advanced variations or algorithms at you. Some of the interviews out there will expect you to have much more knowledge than what was taught in that one class in the uni. And sometimes companies with these interviewing processes really don't even do anything else than CRUD apps which is hilarious given their interviewing routines.
        closeparen 9y ago
        I agree - the algorithms whiteboard interview is a distinct skill for which a CS degree is neither necessary nor sufficient.
      - true_religion 9y ago
        University of Virginia had 2 semesters of theory as a standard + a practical optional, which was usually something that made heavy usage of math or logic anyways. I think Emory has the same. I don't think this is that strange, is it? Which university do you know that doesn't mandate this for Computer Science?
        closeparen 9y ago
        Several semesters of theory is completely normal, but is not the same thing as 4-5 classes on algorithms. I had Discrete Math, Algorithms, and Formal Languages, all purely proof-based. Still, those were 3 courses out of 18 in my major. HN's perception that CS programs are mostly or entirely algorithms classes is baffling to me.
- rboyd 9y ago
  Most job posts are careful to list CS degree "or equivalent experience".
  - rhizome 9y ago
    That's boilerplate for positions that can't legally require a degree. They'll still ask and filter on CS questions.
    - rboyd 9y ago
      Yes, and when you answer them correctly you get the offer. It's only getting easier for autodidacts in this industry, with OCW, Stanford Online, Udacity, etc. The degree itself is a pretty terrible filter unless it comes from one of a very select few schools. If you're not admitted to one of the best schools you're arguably better off going it alone these days.
      - lsc 9y ago
        >If you're not admitted to one of the best schools you're arguably better off going it alone these days. Just a note to people making this decision now. I did pretty well without a degree, but my dad and my stepdad both worked in this industry. This is true of most of the people I know who work in the field without a degree. If you don't already have good industry contacts? breaking in without a degree can be difficult. On the other hand, there's no harm in trying to get a job, and if you can't, calling it a gap year and heading to college... I'm just sayin' - especially if you don't have family contacts to smooth the way, I wouldn't poo-poo the idea of college. I personally want to go to college now (for other reasons) and I'm kind of pissed at younger me for not taking high school seriously, meaning I've got to spend two years in a community college first, if I want to get into an exclusive school.
    - randomdata 9y ago
      Mind you, if you've spent much time developing software to have the experience they seek, you soon start to learn those CS concepts naturally anyway. Really, all they are filtering against is people who are bad at interviewing and maybe they'll catch the odd person who does not even know how to turn a computer on but wanted to see if they could get the job anyway.
maxxxxx 9y ago
"Woz/Jobs style college dropout lifestyle" Only if you drop out from an elite college.
- randomdata 9y ago
  Reed College is considered an elite college? Honestly, I've never heard of it other than in the stories about Jobs. I can see UC Berkley being considered elite, but Woz completed his studies there. He is not a dropout.
  - maxxxxx 9y ago
    Based on Wikipedia reed is way up in college ranking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reed_College https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reed_College. His parents could barely afford it. Definitely not a community college. Gates and Zuckerberg dropped out of Harvard. I just wanted to contradict the myth that SV is friendly towards college dropouts.
    - randomdata 9y ago
      Interestingly, what you ended up pointing out is that SV (and, really, the world in general) is most friendly towards people who are born successful. Which is something I think we all implicitly already understand. College admissions, and especially elite colleges, are careful to admit only those people who have already demonstrated successful qualities. Jobs, Woz, Gates and Zuckerberg were accepted into these schools because they were already successful people. Their later success in business is a result of the same successful qualities that their respective schools saw in them to originally admit them as students. So, it is unsurprising they were eligible to be students at these elite schools given their successes, but the eliteness of the school ends up being inconsequential. It was who they are that allowed them to succeed in both gaining access to these elite schools and finding success in business. Successful people are successful.
randomdata 9y ago
Not only interesting, a concerning trend for tech professionals in the Valley who have become accustomed to being able to walk into any job they want and make a fortune doing it. Employers only worry about placing arbitrary requirements on jobs when they are receiving more applications for jobs than they can handle. The requirements become a fast way to cull the numbers to more manageable levels for personal review. That they are now seeing more applications than they can handle highlights that competition is starting to heat up, and with more competition comes more difficulty in finding work and lower prices as people start to undercut each other to secure a position. The stereotypical college dropout lifestyle goes part and parcel with the get rich quick view of the Valley. Even five years ago nobody would have ever suggested a tech job in the Valley requires a degree. It wasn't that many years ago that we used to joke that tech employers in the Valley preferred people without a degree. According to the article, that is no longer the case. When one starts to fade, so does the other. But it is all bound to happen eventually. After all, the cure for high prices is high prices.
- dsfyu404ed 9y ago
  >a concerning trend for tech professionals in the Valley who have become accustomed to being able to walk into any job they want and make a fortune doing it. Bubbles pop and fools get hurt when they do. Water is wet.
- throwawayjava 9y ago
  > According to the article, that is no longer the case I think this thread is confusing "degree or equivalent knowledge" with "no really honest to god you don't need a degree". Mid-tech is the latter. Consider the examples given in the article: "...computer systems analyst, computer network architects, and support specialist..." The Midwest is not replete with jobs held by self-taught software engineers. It's replete with jobs (dubbed mid-tech) that don't require the self-teaching in the first place.
  - randomdata 9y ago
    > It's replete with jobs (dubbed mid-tech) that don't require the self-teaching in the first place. I worked in a job that seems to match the description of computer network architect in high school. It certainly required a fair amount of self-teaching (in my case; I suppose one could replace that with college or on-the-job instruction). Knowledge provided by a source of some kind was necessary. One is typically not born knowing how to do that type of work. Does a job that does not require teaching (self or otherwise) even exist? I have family in the manufacturing business that I occasionally help out with when they are short-staffed as a favor. From the outside the job looks about as menial as it gets, but actually stepping in and helping leaves me appreciating what those people are capable of doing with the knowledge they have. There is no way, with my limited knowledge and ability in that industry, I'd be hired to work for them if they weren't desperate. I farm on the side and that is the most intense ramp-up of knowledge requirements I have ever experienced. That experience has been like learning CS and software engineering, forgetting everything you learned, and repeating several more times. And still feeling like you don't know what you are doing. I've been farming for 10 years now and I still feel like a newbie. After 10 years of software development, while I recognized that there is still more to learn, I at least felt pretty confident in having progressed in my knowledge and abilities to a more advanced level. I don't know that anyone who claims farming requires a degree. If degree here simply means requires an education of some kind, not specifically a degree from an accredited institution, then I'm not sure that there is a job out there that doesn't match that description in SV, the mid-west, or anywhere else. The only explanation here seems to be the expectations of employers, who trend towards setting more arbitrary expectations as the competition for the work increases. If you only have one applicant, you simply can't be choosy about who you hire.

bdcravens 9y ago

> the West Coast ethos more idealized a kind of Woz/Jobs style college dropout lifestyle I think this is romanticized. Many startups require college degrees, and the crazy algorithm interviews really aren't passable without a strong CS background. Hell, Woz probably wouldn't have passed one of those interviews (and Jobs wasn't really a developer though he had some early technical roles)

closeparen 9y ago
>crazy algorithm interviews really aren't passable without a strong CS background. Algorithms is one class.
- kenhwang 9y ago
  Where did you go where it's only one class? My university (quarter system) required 4 minimum.
- bdcravens 9y ago
  I was speaking somewhat in general, with "algorithm" being {crazy_computer_science_problem} (when you're interviewing for a React or Rails gig no less)
- richardknop 9y ago
  Maybe basics. To go deeper it could be many more classes, 4-5 easily. It just depends how deep and wide you want to go. You can't do more then basic overview of couple of standard algorithms in one class tbh.
  - closeparen 9y ago
    Which universities have multiple semesters of algorithms as standard undergrad curriculum?
    - richardknop 9y ago
      That was besides my point (there probably are universities like that). What I was trying to point out was that a class of algorithms might not be enough to prepare you for some hardcore algorithmic interviews out there that go into lot of detail you probably didn't learn in that one class or throw some more advanced variations or algorithms at you. Some of the interviews out there will expect you to have much more knowledge than what was taught in that one class in the uni. And sometimes companies with these interviewing processes really don't even do anything else than CRUD apps which is hilarious given their interviewing routines.
      - closeparen 9y ago
        I agree - the algorithms whiteboard interview is a distinct skill for which a CS degree is neither necessary nor sufficient.
    - true_religion 9y ago
      University of Virginia had 2 semesters of theory as a standard + a practical optional, which was usually something that made heavy usage of math or logic anyways. I think Emory has the same. I don't think this is that strange, is it? Which university do you know that doesn't mandate this for Computer Science?
      - closeparen 9y ago
        Several semesters of theory is completely normal, but is not the same thing as 4-5 classes on algorithms. I had Discrete Math, Algorithms, and Formal Languages, all purely proof-based. Still, those were 3 courses out of 18 in my major. HN's perception that CS programs are mostly or entirely algorithms classes is baffling to me.
rboyd 9y ago
Most job posts are careful to list CS degree "or equivalent experience".
- rhizome 9y ago
  That's boilerplate for positions that can't legally require a degree. They'll still ask and filter on CS questions.
  - rboyd 9y ago
    Yes, and when you answer them correctly you get the offer. It's only getting easier for autodidacts in this industry, with OCW, Stanford Online, Udacity, etc. The degree itself is a pretty terrible filter unless it comes from one of a very select few schools. If you're not admitted to one of the best schools you're arguably better off going it alone these days.
    - lsc 9y ago
      >If you're not admitted to one of the best schools you're arguably better off going it alone these days. Just a note to people making this decision now. I did pretty well without a degree, but my dad and my stepdad both worked in this industry. This is true of most of the people I know who work in the field without a degree. If you don't already have good industry contacts? breaking in without a degree can be difficult. On the other hand, there's no harm in trying to get a job, and if you can't, calling it a gap year and heading to college... I'm just sayin' - especially if you don't have family contacts to smooth the way, I wouldn't poo-poo the idea of college. I personally want to go to college now (for other reasons) and I'm kind of pissed at younger me for not taking high school seriously, meaning I've got to spend two years in a community college first, if I want to get into an exclusive school.
  - randomdata 9y ago
    Mind you, if you've spent much time developing software to have the experience they seek, you soon start to learn those CS concepts naturally anyway. Really, all they are filtering against is people who are bad at interviewing and maybe they'll catch the odd person who does not even know how to turn a computer on but wanted to see if they could get the job anyway.

maxxxxx 9y ago

"Woz/Jobs style college dropout lifestyle" Only if you drop out from an elite college.

randomdata 9y ago
Reed College is considered an elite college? Honestly, I've never heard of it other than in the stories about Jobs. I can see UC Berkley being considered elite, but Woz completed his studies there. He is not a dropout.
- maxxxxx 9y ago
  Based on Wikipedia reed is way up in college ranking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reed_College https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reed_College. His parents could barely afford it. Definitely not a community college. Gates and Zuckerberg dropped out of Harvard. I just wanted to contradict the myth that SV is friendly towards college dropouts.
  - randomdata 9y ago
    Interestingly, what you ended up pointing out is that SV (and, really, the world in general) is most friendly towards people who are born successful. Which is something I think we all implicitly already understand. College admissions, and especially elite colleges, are careful to admit only those people who have already demonstrated successful qualities. Jobs, Woz, Gates and Zuckerberg were accepted into these schools because they were already successful people. Their later success in business is a result of the same successful qualities that their respective schools saw in them to originally admit them as students. So, it is unsurprising they were eligible to be students at these elite schools given their successes, but the eliteness of the school ends up being inconsequential. It was who they are that allowed them to succeed in both gaining access to these elite schools and finding success in business. Successful people are successful.

randomdata 9y ago

Not only interesting, a concerning trend for tech professionals in the Valley who have become accustomed to being able to walk into any job they want and make a fortune doing it. Employers only worry about placing arbitrary requirements on jobs when they are receiving more applications for jobs than they can handle. The requirements become a fast way to cull the numbers to more manageable levels for personal review. That they are now seeing more applications than they can handle highlights that competition is starting to heat up, and with more competition comes more difficulty in finding work and lower prices as people start to undercut each other to secure a position. The stereotypical college dropout lifestyle goes part and parcel with the get rich quick view of the Valley. Even five years ago nobody would have ever suggested a tech job in the Valley requires a degree. It wasn't that many years ago that we used to joke that tech employers in the Valley preferred people without a degree. According to the article, that is no longer the case. When one starts to fade, so does the other. But it is all bound to happen eventually. After all, the cure for high prices is high prices.

dsfyu404ed 9y ago
>a concerning trend for tech professionals in the Valley who have become accustomed to being able to walk into any job they want and make a fortune doing it. Bubbles pop and fools get hurt when they do. Water is wet.
throwawayjava 9y ago
> According to the article, that is no longer the case I think this thread is confusing "degree or equivalent knowledge" with "no really honest to god you don't need a degree". Mid-tech is the latter. Consider the examples given in the article: "...computer systems analyst, computer network architects, and support specialist..." The Midwest is not replete with jobs held by self-taught software engineers. It's replete with jobs (dubbed mid-tech) that don't require the self-teaching in the first place.
- randomdata 9y ago
  > It's replete with jobs (dubbed mid-tech) that don't require the self-teaching in the first place. I worked in a job that seems to match the description of computer network architect in high school. It certainly required a fair amount of self-teaching (in my case; I suppose one could replace that with college or on-the-job instruction). Knowledge provided by a source of some kind was necessary. One is typically not born knowing how to do that type of work. Does a job that does not require teaching (self or otherwise) even exist? I have family in the manufacturing business that I occasionally help out with when they are short-staffed as a favor. From the outside the job looks about as menial as it gets, but actually stepping in and helping leaves me appreciating what those people are capable of doing with the knowledge they have. There is no way, with my limited knowledge and ability in that industry, I'd be hired to work for them if they weren't desperate. I farm on the side and that is the most intense ramp-up of knowledge requirements I have ever experienced. That experience has been like learning CS and software engineering, forgetting everything you learned, and repeating several more times. And still feeling like you don't know what you are doing. I've been farming for 10 years now and I still feel like a newbie. After 10 years of software development, while I recognized that there is still more to learn, I at least felt pretty confident in having progressed in my knowledge and abilities to a more advanced level. I don't know that anyone who claims farming requires a degree. If degree here simply means requires an education of some kind, not specifically a degree from an accredited institution, then I'm not sure that there is a job out there that doesn't match that description in SV, the mid-west, or anywhere else. The only explanation here seems to be the expectations of employers, who trend towards setting more arbitrary expectations as the competition for the work increases. If you only have one applicant, you simply can't be choosy about who you hire.