8 ms·

As a tech worker in a startup in the midwest I find this article vaguely insulting. On the one hand I am happy to see more acknowledgement that tech does happe

by rotten 9y ago

As a tech worker in a startup in the midwest I find this article vaguely insulting. On the one hand I am happy to see more acknowledgement that tech does happen in places other than Silicon Valley, but on the other hand apparently it is only "mid-tech" and only good enough for "blue collar" workers.

madengr 9y ago
Agree. There are plenty of traditional engineering jobs here in Kansas City, and they most definitely require a BS, if not higher. Nowadays the media only equates software with “high tech”.
- bdcravens 9y ago
  I don't think the article is discounting those roles, only saying mid-tech is more common in KC than SF.
- meritt 9y ago
  Does KC have a startup culture yet? There's always been ample engineering jobs (sprint, cerner, garmin, dst, perceptive, etc) but that's what I imagine you're describing as traditional (as opposed to the less euphemistic "blue collar")? Those jobs provide a vastly different culture that appeals to a very different type of software engineer than you'll encounter in the Bay area, Austin, Seattle, Portland, NYC, etc. That culture is precisely why I left KC. It felt too much like I was living in a Dilbert cartoon. I agree on education though: KC places a very high level of importance on a degree as opposed to ones ability to get things done. This was a decade ago, but I lost count the number of BS/MS/PhD CS-degree-holders I interviewed in KC who couldn't code fizzbuzz.
  - madengr 9y ago
    You won't find the brogrammer hipster startups. What you'll find are small companies in vanilla office and industrial parks. The whole "startup" is asinine. In the old'n days it was callled "starting a business". Things such as medical devices, specialized aerospace parts, etc.
bdcravens 9y ago
I thought the article was pretty objective. It defines "mid-tech" as jobs not requiring a traditional college degree. ("loosely defined as tech jobs requiring less than a college degree") It's not saying all tech jobs in the midwest are mid-tech, only that those jobs are more likely in areas like the midwest. I think you're projecting based on a perception that your employer isn't as respected as it would be if it were located elsewhere. (I'm in Houston, working at a company that's not in the energy sector and is run more like a startup, so I recognize that frustration)
- _delirium 9y ago
  It's kind of interesting that that's now a distinguishing factor from SV, since that used to be seen as one of the defining aspects of the Valley's take on tech. While you needed a degree to work in "east coast" tech like IBM or Bell Labs (ideally a masters or PhD) the West Coast ethos more idealized a kind of Woz/Jobs style college dropout lifestyle. Although I realize the latter is not precisely "blue collar" either.
  - bdcravens 9y ago
    > the West Coast ethos more idealized a kind of Woz/Jobs style college dropout lifestyle I think this is romanticized. Many startups require college degrees, and the crazy algorithm interviews really aren't passable without a strong CS background. Hell, Woz probably wouldn't have passed one of those interviews (and Jobs wasn't really a developer though he had some early technical roles)
    - closeparen 9y ago
      >crazy algorithm interviews really aren't passable without a strong CS background. Algorithms is one class.
      - kenhwang 9y ago
        Where did you go where it's only one class? My university (quarter system) required 4 minimum.
emerged 9y ago
Although it can also be a strategic advantage to be underestimated. Love my Midwest life and it is an odd comfort when big city elites denigrate the "flyover" states. It's fully fine with me if they stay right where they are.
- dsfyu404ed 9y ago
  > It's fully fine with me if they stay right where they are. You won't be laughing if they decide they like your city enough to import all their SV problems. Happened to Colorado. It might happen again.
  - firebones 9y ago
    Out of curiosity, which part? CO is very appealing as a worker.
Hydraulix989 9y ago
Yes, why does everything in the midwest have to be "blue collar" -- or even worse, "Rust Belt"? These are very unwelcoming words/stereotypes. A more fair version of this headline is "The American midwest is quickly becoming the next Silicon Valley" -- which I actually see happening right now, as more and more of my friends give up on the beyond-repair housing market in SF and decide to move out (in many cases their employers even let them keep their jobs as remote positions).
- qbrass 9y ago
  "The American midwest is quickly becoming the next Mumbai." What you're seeing is SV outsourcing to America.
kevin_thibedeau 9y ago
I found it extremely difficult to find any employer in Indiana that wouldn't scoff at paying a senior engineer more than $75K in 2015. That is less than my inflation adjusted junior engineer starting salary 15 years prior. The entire industry has a problem with fair pay and rushing to the middle is just a way to squeeze more profit from the labor of tech workers.
- throwawayjava 9y ago
  This is very true. Even after CoL adjustments, high-tech jobs in the midwest don't typically pay as well as the coasts. Especially in senior roles. Notice that this is especially true for the vast number of coastal-state cities that aren't SFBA [1]. However, this apt observation is not what the article is actually about. Mid-tech jobs are things like "...computer systems analyst, computer network architects, and support specialist...", which are very different jobs from software engineering. [1] As an aside, CoL adjustments between the Midwest and coastal-state cities are extremely favorable to the Midwest in cases where you can actually afford to buy a house (read: not SFBA). If you buy a house in the midwest, you usually have to be okay with treating it as "not an investment". Whereas a house in Portland, Seattle etc. function as both a place to live as well as an investment likely to appreciate handsomely. Personally, I'm OK treating CoL as a sunk cost and not engaging in real estate speculation during my non-work hours. But from an objective perspective, the CoL pay cut suffered in MW cities is often unjustified given the opportunity cost of not living in an area with more and more predictable real estate appreciation. Selfishly, I wish folks in the Midwest had more success convincing their employers that "cheap land" is not a good justification for severely underpaying their labor force.
  - Hydraulix989 9y ago
    Have you taken a look at the real estate markets in Austin, Pittsburgh, or Raleigh? "Buy low, sell high" is the adage of any savvy investor -- the markets in SF have been stagnant for years now.
    - closeparen 9y ago
FullMtlAlcoholc 9y ago
It pays far less even when accounting for the cost of living benefits in the Midwest. However, in my experience, there is less to spend money on, but those savings do not come close to the higher pay on the coasts. Another issue, at least in Detroit, is that a number are startups in name only. A significant number of them are spun out of Quicken Loans. There is far less chance that you get equity as part of a pay package as well with these startups

by rotten 9y ago

madengr 9y ago

Agree. There are plenty of traditional engineering jobs here in Kansas City, and they most definitely require a BS, if not higher. Nowadays the media only equates software with “high tech”.

bdcravens 9y ago
I don't think the article is discounting those roles, only saying mid-tech is more common in KC than SF.
meritt 9y ago
Does KC have a startup culture yet? There's always been ample engineering jobs (sprint, cerner, garmin, dst, perceptive, etc) but that's what I imagine you're describing as traditional (as opposed to the less euphemistic "blue collar")? Those jobs provide a vastly different culture that appeals to a very different type of software engineer than you'll encounter in the Bay area, Austin, Seattle, Portland, NYC, etc. That culture is precisely why I left KC. It felt too much like I was living in a Dilbert cartoon. I agree on education though: KC places a very high level of importance on a degree as opposed to ones ability to get things done. This was a decade ago, but I lost count the number of BS/MS/PhD CS-degree-holders I interviewed in KC who couldn't code fizzbuzz.
- madengr 9y ago
  You won't find the brogrammer hipster startups. What you'll find are small companies in vanilla office and industrial parks. The whole "startup" is asinine. In the old'n days it was callled "starting a business". Things such as medical devices, specialized aerospace parts, etc.

bdcravens 9y ago

I thought the article was pretty objective. It defines "mid-tech" as jobs not requiring a traditional college degree. ("loosely defined as tech jobs requiring less than a college degree") It's not saying all tech jobs in the midwest are mid-tech, only that those jobs are more likely in areas like the midwest. I think you're projecting based on a perception that your employer isn't as respected as it would be if it were located elsewhere. (I'm in Houston, working at a company that's not in the energy sector and is run more like a startup, so I recognize that frustration)

_delirium 9y ago
It's kind of interesting that that's now a distinguishing factor from SV, since that used to be seen as one of the defining aspects of the Valley's take on tech. While you needed a degree to work in "east coast" tech like IBM or Bell Labs (ideally a masters or PhD) the West Coast ethos more idealized a kind of Woz/Jobs style college dropout lifestyle. Although I realize the latter is not precisely "blue collar" either.
- bdcravens 9y ago
  > the West Coast ethos more idealized a kind of Woz/Jobs style college dropout lifestyle I think this is romanticized. Many startups require college degrees, and the crazy algorithm interviews really aren't passable without a strong CS background. Hell, Woz probably wouldn't have passed one of those interviews (and Jobs wasn't really a developer though he had some early technical roles)
  - closeparen 9y ago
    >crazy algorithm interviews really aren't passable without a strong CS background. Algorithms is one class.
    - kenhwang 9y ago
      Where did you go where it's only one class? My university (quarter system) required 4 minimum.

emerged 9y ago

Although it can also be a strategic advantage to be underestimated. Love my Midwest life and it is an odd comfort when big city elites denigrate the "flyover" states. It's fully fine with me if they stay right where they are.

dsfyu404ed 9y ago
> It's fully fine with me if they stay right where they are. You won't be laughing if they decide they like your city enough to import all their SV problems. Happened to Colorado. It might happen again.
- firebones 9y ago
  Out of curiosity, which part? CO is very appealing as a worker.

Hydraulix989 9y ago

Yes, why does everything in the midwest have to be "blue collar" -- or even worse, "Rust Belt"? These are very unwelcoming words/stereotypes. A more fair version of this headline is "The American midwest is quickly becoming the next Silicon Valley" -- which I actually see happening right now, as more and more of my friends give up on the beyond-repair housing market in SF and decide to move out (in many cases their employers even let them keep their jobs as remote positions).

qbrass 9y ago
"The American midwest is quickly becoming the next Mumbai." What you're seeing is SV outsourcing to America.

kevin_thibedeau 9y ago

I found it extremely difficult to find any employer in Indiana that wouldn't scoff at paying a senior engineer more than $75K in 2015. That is less than my inflation adjusted junior engineer starting salary 15 years prior. The entire industry has a problem with fair pay and rushing to the middle is just a way to squeeze more profit from the labor of tech workers.

throwawayjava 9y ago
This is very true. Even after CoL adjustments, high-tech jobs in the midwest don't typically pay as well as the coasts. Especially in senior roles. Notice that this is especially true for the vast number of coastal-state cities that aren't SFBA [1]. However, this apt observation is not what the article is actually about. Mid-tech jobs are things like "...computer systems analyst, computer network architects, and support specialist...", which are very different jobs from software engineering. [1] As an aside, CoL adjustments between the Midwest and coastal-state cities are extremely favorable to the Midwest in cases where you can actually afford to buy a house (read: not SFBA). If you buy a house in the midwest, you usually have to be okay with treating it as "not an investment". Whereas a house in Portland, Seattle etc. function as both a place to live as well as an investment likely to appreciate handsomely. Personally, I'm OK treating CoL as a sunk cost and not engaging in real estate speculation during my non-work hours. But from an objective perspective, the CoL pay cut suffered in MW cities is often unjustified given the opportunity cost of not living in an area with more and more predictable real estate appreciation. Selfishly, I wish folks in the Midwest had more success convincing their employers that "cheap land" is not a good justification for severely underpaying their labor force.
- Hydraulix989 9y ago
  Have you taken a look at the real estate markets in Austin, Pittsburgh, or Raleigh? "Buy low, sell high" is the adage of any savvy investor -- the markets in SF have been stagnant for years now.
  - closeparen 9y ago

FullMtlAlcoholc 9y ago

It pays far less even when accounting for the cost of living benefits in the Midwest. However, in my experience, there is less to spend money on, but those savings do not come close to the higher pay on the coasts. Another issue, at least in Detroit, is that a number are startups in name only. A significant number of them are spun out of Quicken Loans. There is far less chance that you get equity as part of a pay package as well with these startups