10 ms·

The American midwest is quickly becoming a blue-collar version of Silicon Valley

87 points by watchdogtimer 9y ago

rotten 9y ago
As a tech worker in a startup in the midwest I find this article vaguely insulting. On the one hand I am happy to see more acknowledgement that tech does happen in places other than Silicon Valley, but on the other hand apparently it is only "mid-tech" and only good enough for "blue collar" workers.
- madengr 9y ago
  Agree. There are plenty of traditional engineering jobs here in Kansas City, and they most definitely require a BS, if not higher. Nowadays the media only equates software with “high tech”.
  - bdcravens 9y ago
    I don't think the article is discounting those roles, only saying mid-tech is more common in KC than SF.
  - meritt 9y ago
    Does KC have a startup culture yet? There's always been ample engineering jobs (sprint, cerner, garmin, dst, perceptive, etc) but that's what I imagine you're describing as traditional (as opposed to the less euphemistic "blue collar")? Those jobs provide a vastly different culture that appeals to a very different type of software engineer than you'll encounter in the Bay area, Austin, Seattle, Portland, NYC, etc. That culture is precisely why I left KC. It felt too much like I was living in a Dilbert cartoon. I agree on education though: KC places a very high level of importance on a degree as opposed to ones ability to get things done. This was a decade ago, but I lost count the number of BS/MS/PhD CS-degree-holders I interviewed in KC who couldn't code fizzbuzz.
    - madengr 9y ago
      You won't find the brogrammer hipster startups. What you'll find are small companies in vanilla office and industrial parks. The whole "startup" is asinine. In the old'n days it was callled "starting a business". Things such as medical devices, specialized aerospace parts, etc.
- bdcravens 9y ago
  I thought the article was pretty objective. It defines "mid-tech" as jobs not requiring a traditional college degree. ("loosely defined as tech jobs requiring less than a college degree") It's not saying all tech jobs in the midwest are mid-tech, only that those jobs are more likely in areas like the midwest. I think you're projecting based on a perception that your employer isn't as respected as it would be if it were located elsewhere. (I'm in Houston, working at a company that's not in the energy sector and is run more like a startup, so I recognize that frustration)
  - _delirium 9y ago
    It's kind of interesting that that's now a distinguishing factor from SV, since that used to be seen as one of the defining aspects of the Valley's take on tech. While you needed a degree to work in "east coast" tech like IBM or Bell Labs (ideally a masters or PhD) the West Coast ethos more idealized a kind of Woz/Jobs style college dropout lifestyle. Although I realize the latter is not precisely "blue collar" either.
    - bdcravens 9y ago
      > the West Coast ethos more idealized a kind of Woz/Jobs style college dropout lifestyle I think this is romanticized. Many startups require college degrees, and the crazy algorithm interviews really aren't passable without a strong CS background. Hell, Woz probably wouldn't have passed one of those interviews (and Jobs wasn't really a developer though he had some early technical roles)
      - closeparen 9y ago
        >crazy algorithm interviews really aren't passable without a strong CS background. Algorithms is one class.
        kenhwang 9y ago
        Where did you go where it's only one class? My university (quarter system) required 4 minimum.
- emerged 9y ago
  Although it can also be a strategic advantage to be underestimated. Love my Midwest life and it is an odd comfort when big city elites denigrate the "flyover" states. It's fully fine with me if they stay right where they are.
  - dsfyu404ed 9y ago
    > It's fully fine with me if they stay right where they are. You won't be laughing if they decide they like your city enough to import all their SV problems. Happened to Colorado. It might happen again.
    - firebones 9y ago
      Out of curiosity, which part? CO is very appealing as a worker.
- Hydraulix989 9y ago
  Yes, why does everything in the midwest have to be "blue collar" -- or even worse, "Rust Belt"? These are very unwelcoming words/stereotypes. A more fair version of this headline is "The American midwest is quickly becoming the next Silicon Valley" -- which I actually see happening right now, as more and more of my friends give up on the beyond-repair housing market in SF and decide to move out (in many cases their employers even let them keep their jobs as remote positions).
  - qbrass 9y ago
    "The American midwest is quickly becoming the next Mumbai." What you're seeing is SV outsourcing to America.
- kevin_thibedeau 9y ago
  I found it extremely difficult to find any employer in Indiana that wouldn't scoff at paying a senior engineer more than $75K in 2015. That is less than my inflation adjusted junior engineer starting salary 15 years prior. The entire industry has a problem with fair pay and rushing to the middle is just a way to squeeze more profit from the labor of tech workers.
  - throwawayjava 9y ago
    This is very true. Even after CoL adjustments, high-tech jobs in the midwest don't typically pay as well as the coasts. Especially in senior roles. Notice that this is especially true for the vast number of coastal-state cities that aren't SFBA [1]. However, this apt observation is not what the article is actually about. Mid-tech jobs are things like "...computer systems analyst, computer network architects, and support specialist...", which are very different jobs from software engineering. [1] As an aside, CoL adjustments between the Midwest and coastal-state cities are extremely favorable to the Midwest in cases where you can actually afford to buy a house (read: not SFBA). If you buy a house in the midwest, you usually have to be okay with treating it as "not an investment". Whereas a house in Portland, Seattle etc. function as both a place to live as well as an investment likely to appreciate handsomely. Personally, I'm OK treating CoL as a sunk cost and not engaging in real estate speculation during my non-work hours. But from an objective perspective, the CoL pay cut suffered in MW cities is often unjustified given the opportunity cost of not living in an area with more and more predictable real estate appreciation. Selfishly, I wish folks in the Midwest had more success convincing their employers that "cheap land" is not a good justification for severely underpaying their labor force.
    - Hydraulix989 9y ago
      Have you taken a look at the real estate markets in Austin, Pittsburgh, or Raleigh? "Buy low, sell high" is the adage of any savvy investor -- the markets in SF have been stagnant for years now.
      - closeparen 9y ago
- FullMtlAlcoholc 9y ago
  It pays far less even when accounting for the cost of living benefits in the Midwest. However, in my experience, there is less to spend money on, but those savings do not come close to the higher pay on the coasts. Another issue, at least in Detroit, is that a number are startups in name only. A significant number of them are spun out of Quicken Loans. There is far less chance that you get equity as part of a pay package as well with these startups
germinalphrase 9y ago
I have family in the trades (electric & plumbing) - but I would love to hear from anyone who works in advanced manufacturing, automation, or other specializations about their career path and field growth/career longevity. I am considering a career change. I went into k12 education due to the mission, but I'm burning out on the time/emotional investment in relation to the compensation.
booleandilemma 9y ago
What is the difference between a computer programmer and a software application developer? Aren’t these titles used interchangeably?
- pmorici 9y ago
  the term "programmer" is generally used to describe software jobs where you aren't expected to do much design or critical thinking or have in-depth knowledge of computer science or engineering concepts. A good analogy might be like the difference between a doctor and a nurse.
  - fineline 9y ago
    I design and implement system architecture and user interfaces, manage people and projects, plan future areas of R&D, etc. and I still call myself (in conversation) a computer programmer. I find it helps distinguish me from all the talking heads in this industry who couldn't actually build an information system if their lives depended upon it.
- TheCoelacanth 9y ago
  As titles they are often used interchangeably, but the BLS categorizes them separately based on kind of an old-fashioned idea of how software is developed. The distinction is that software developers[1] plan out how software will work and the computer programmers[2] write the code to make it work. The idea that these are separate roles is rapidly going out of fashion in the industry and is already pretty outdated. Only 300k workers are categorized as computer programmers while 1.3 million are categorized as software developers and on top of that the number of software developers is projected to grow by 24% over the next decade while the number of computer programmers is projected to decline by 7%. [1] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/... [2] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/computer-programmers.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/...
  - ams6110 9y ago
anonytrary 9y ago
52% of network architects don't have a degree but 95% of app developers do? This is the exact opposite as I would expect.
- closeparen 9y ago
  A network architect is an experienced technician (the "blue-collar" form of IT) who graduated from help desk and break/fix to helping out with project work to getting to design and lead projects. In that world, you may have a trade-school degree in IT/MIS and/or vendor certifications, but a CS degree isn't going to help you operate the Windows Server admin panel, configure Cisco routers, know which model number of HP switch is appropriate for a situation, or make sure that your underlings get the low-voltage cabling and patch panels right. It's going to help you write Windows Server and the router firmware that technicians operate. Planning, installing, configuring, and integrating off-the-shelf components to create an IT environment for a business is a totally different world from software engineering, particularly in the Silicon Valley style.
  - anonytrary 9y ago
    Thanks, this is very clear now. I must have been confusing "network architect" with "software architect".
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- rhizome 9y ago
  Sysadmins are also historically a non-degree position, because there is no degree for it. People who come out of university with the skills and interest to go into systems or neteng often have learned through working for the university's IT department, not through classwork.
  - lsc 9y ago
    >Sysadmins are also historically a non-degree position, because there is no degree for it. Sure there is. Computer information systems. Management information systems. Computer Information Technology. Now, as far as I can tell, these are degrees usually offered at community colleges and lower status four year schools. And for that matter, I've spent much of my career as a sysadmin, and the only people I've met with those degrees have been managers who have moved in from other industries rather than moving up. But the degrees exist, even if Stanford or Berkeley probably won't offer them.
brandonmenc 9y ago
> “The modern factory job is a mid-tech job” No it is not. Anyone could work a factory job. The least intelligent, least motivated people could punch a clock and earn a decent living tightening the same bolt a thousand times a day, all day long. At best, mid-tech jobs are like modern clerking jobs, but even that's pushing it. The modern factory job is fast-food, and the lack of associated pay and benefits is a major problem. Too many people are simply not smart enough to be programmers.
- AlotOfReading 9y ago
  Some factory jobs are that repetitive, but most factories are increasingly automated and the skills needed to maintain that automation are every bit as technical as programming.
  - briandear 9y ago
    Yes but the article wasn’t talking about modern factory jobs.. it suggested that mid-tech is equivalent to the factory jobs of yesteryear — which were repetitive and not necessarily requiring superior intellect (relatively speaking.)
- lsc 9y ago
  >Anyone could work a factory job. The least intelligent, least motivated people could punch a clock and earn a decent living tightening the same bolt a thousand times a day, all day long. I don't have personal experience as a '50s factory worker, but I do have some experience assembling things and working on cars. I doubt this description of factory work being completely brainless. If you've ever tried to watch someone who isn't mechanically inclined assemble anything, you can see that there is a skill in fitting things together. Even if your job is to tighten that same bolt every day, you've still gotta figure out how to properly torque it; too loose and the bolt comes out, too tight and you shear the goddamn thing off. Use one of those old style torque wrenches and you're gonna be way slower than the next guy.
  - brandonmenc 9y ago
shas3 9y ago
Bizarre article full of unsubstantiated claims (e.g. Midwest cities generally “spending years in the doldrums” huh? Twin Cities, Chicago, Kansas City, Indianapolis, etc. have consistently been doing well) and sketchy assumptions (mid-tech blue collar?). This whole tendency to bunch all mid-west cities together is ignorant and condescending. Also, “decline of mid west cities” is mostly a story of cities not necessarily the entire region or even the cities’ suburbs (Detroit’s wealthy suburbs are as rich as ever). Generally muddled piece.
- iamdave 9y ago
  Indianapolis, etc. have consistently been doing well I can't speak for the other examples, but...ask me how I know you don't live in Indianapolis. This city definitely has a lot of potential to really be something even greater (than I think it is now), and I'm proud to call it my home-but don't romanticize it too much. We are having a series of existential crises here; just jumped out of one political fire and into another with state and municipal leaders (oh dear god are we about to see the end of Unigov? Probably not but a man can dream), schools are laughably bad, roads are hilariously worse (I challenge you to drive a few miles north on Meridian street and try to not have your car swallowed by one of the hundreds of near-car sized potholes), but hey....rent's cheap, so we've got that going for us. Which is nice. Don't sleep on Naptown, if that was your overall sentiment, for sure. Don't sleep on us because there's some rumblings of a real explosion of change underneath it all, and I think we've got nowhere to go but up...same time though yeah we've got a LOT of problems that are going require some very painful decision making in the next 10 years and we gotta look that horse square in the mouth.
  - nightski 9y ago
    Let's not pretend things are any different in California.
    - avs733 9y ago
      I currently live in Indiana but my family is mostly in CA. Most of the dirt roads in Death Valley are nicer than most of the major roads in Indiana. Yes weather is a major player...but the roads are terrible. They don't invest in the schools - aggressively. And farmers as a group are antigovernment to the point that it imperils the ability of the state government to function and attract talent. I started applying for post graduate school jobs in the fall. I applied for one in IN and one in CA that have the same salary. Given the choice, I will pick CA.
cylinder 9y ago
Quartz is quickly becoming a glossy version of a clickbait farm
wavefunction 9y ago
"mid tech" is an interesting descriptor because I'm doing the much the same work as Silicon Valleyites despite not having a degree. Not having a degree has cut me off from some opportunities but I can just pursue those in my own time. I guess I find as I get older less value in the opinions of folks out in SV as I read more and more crazy things about the place and the environment out there. I do appreciate the opportunity for folks who love that environment to partake of it though. I also appreciate the functional advances coming out of SV like libraries and frameworks that I get to use and improve my own work but at the end of the work day I love getting home to my .25 acre lot with my two dogs glad to see me and go for a nice walk in a green-belt. I'm going to be dead some day so why not enjoy what I have.
fictionfuture 9y ago
Silicon Valley is mostly a place for group thinkers with a "get rich quick" mentality and rich parents. That was my impression after living in Sf working as a CEO for 5 years.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

87 points by watchdogtimer 9y ago

As a tech worker in a startup in the midwest I find this article vaguely insulting. On the one hand I am happy to see more acknowledgement that tech does happen in places other than Silicon Valley, but on the other hand apparently it is only "mid-tech" and only good enough for "blue collar" workers.

madengr 9y ago
Agree. There are plenty of traditional engineering jobs here in Kansas City, and they most definitely require a BS, if not higher. Nowadays the media only equates software with “high tech”.
- bdcravens 9y ago
  I don't think the article is discounting those roles, only saying mid-tech is more common in KC than SF.
- meritt 9y ago
  Does KC have a startup culture yet? There's always been ample engineering jobs (sprint, cerner, garmin, dst, perceptive, etc) but that's what I imagine you're describing as traditional (as opposed to the less euphemistic "blue collar")? Those jobs provide a vastly different culture that appeals to a very different type of software engineer than you'll encounter in the Bay area, Austin, Seattle, Portland, NYC, etc. That culture is precisely why I left KC. It felt too much like I was living in a Dilbert cartoon. I agree on education though: KC places a very high level of importance on a degree as opposed to ones ability to get things done. This was a decade ago, but I lost count the number of BS/MS/PhD CS-degree-holders I interviewed in KC who couldn't code fizzbuzz.
  - madengr 9y ago
    You won't find the brogrammer hipster startups. What you'll find are small companies in vanilla office and industrial parks. The whole "startup" is asinine. In the old'n days it was callled "starting a business". Things such as medical devices, specialized aerospace parts, etc.
bdcravens 9y ago
I thought the article was pretty objective. It defines "mid-tech" as jobs not requiring a traditional college degree. ("loosely defined as tech jobs requiring less than a college degree") It's not saying all tech jobs in the midwest are mid-tech, only that those jobs are more likely in areas like the midwest. I think you're projecting based on a perception that your employer isn't as respected as it would be if it were located elsewhere. (I'm in Houston, working at a company that's not in the energy sector and is run more like a startup, so I recognize that frustration)
- _delirium 9y ago
  It's kind of interesting that that's now a distinguishing factor from SV, since that used to be seen as one of the defining aspects of the Valley's take on tech. While you needed a degree to work in "east coast" tech like IBM or Bell Labs (ideally a masters or PhD) the West Coast ethos more idealized a kind of Woz/Jobs style college dropout lifestyle. Although I realize the latter is not precisely "blue collar" either.
  - bdcravens 9y ago
    > the West Coast ethos more idealized a kind of Woz/Jobs style college dropout lifestyle I think this is romanticized. Many startups require college degrees, and the crazy algorithm interviews really aren't passable without a strong CS background. Hell, Woz probably wouldn't have passed one of those interviews (and Jobs wasn't really a developer though he had some early technical roles)
    - closeparen 9y ago
      >crazy algorithm interviews really aren't passable without a strong CS background. Algorithms is one class.
      - kenhwang 9y ago
        Where did you go where it's only one class? My university (quarter system) required 4 minimum.
emerged 9y ago
Although it can also be a strategic advantage to be underestimated. Love my Midwest life and it is an odd comfort when big city elites denigrate the "flyover" states. It's fully fine with me if they stay right where they are.
- dsfyu404ed 9y ago
  > It's fully fine with me if they stay right where they are. You won't be laughing if they decide they like your city enough to import all their SV problems. Happened to Colorado. It might happen again.
  - firebones 9y ago
    Out of curiosity, which part? CO is very appealing as a worker.
Hydraulix989 9y ago
Yes, why does everything in the midwest have to be "blue collar" -- or even worse, "Rust Belt"? These are very unwelcoming words/stereotypes. A more fair version of this headline is "The American midwest is quickly becoming the next Silicon Valley" -- which I actually see happening right now, as more and more of my friends give up on the beyond-repair housing market in SF and decide to move out (in many cases their employers even let them keep their jobs as remote positions).
- qbrass 9y ago
  "The American midwest is quickly becoming the next Mumbai." What you're seeing is SV outsourcing to America.
kevin_thibedeau 9y ago
I found it extremely difficult to find any employer in Indiana that wouldn't scoff at paying a senior engineer more than $75K in 2015. That is less than my inflation adjusted junior engineer starting salary 15 years prior. The entire industry has a problem with fair pay and rushing to the middle is just a way to squeeze more profit from the labor of tech workers.
- throwawayjava 9y ago
  This is very true. Even after CoL adjustments, high-tech jobs in the midwest don't typically pay as well as the coasts. Especially in senior roles. Notice that this is especially true for the vast number of coastal-state cities that aren't SFBA [1]. However, this apt observation is not what the article is actually about. Mid-tech jobs are things like "...computer systems analyst, computer network architects, and support specialist...", which are very different jobs from software engineering. [1] As an aside, CoL adjustments between the Midwest and coastal-state cities are extremely favorable to the Midwest in cases where you can actually afford to buy a house (read: not SFBA). If you buy a house in the midwest, you usually have to be okay with treating it as "not an investment". Whereas a house in Portland, Seattle etc. function as both a place to live as well as an investment likely to appreciate handsomely. Personally, I'm OK treating CoL as a sunk cost and not engaging in real estate speculation during my non-work hours. But from an objective perspective, the CoL pay cut suffered in MW cities is often unjustified given the opportunity cost of not living in an area with more and more predictable real estate appreciation. Selfishly, I wish folks in the Midwest had more success convincing their employers that "cheap land" is not a good justification for severely underpaying their labor force.
  - Hydraulix989 9y ago
    Have you taken a look at the real estate markets in Austin, Pittsburgh, or Raleigh? "Buy low, sell high" is the adage of any savvy investor -- the markets in SF have been stagnant for years now.
    - closeparen 9y ago
FullMtlAlcoholc 9y ago
It pays far less even when accounting for the cost of living benefits in the Midwest. However, in my experience, there is less to spend money on, but those savings do not come close to the higher pay on the coasts. Another issue, at least in Detroit, is that a number are startups in name only. A significant number of them are spun out of Quicken Loans. There is far less chance that you get equity as part of a pay package as well with these startups

germinalphrase 9y ago

I have family in the trades (electric & plumbing) - but I would love to hear from anyone who works in advanced manufacturing, automation, or other specializations about their career path and field growth/career longevity. I am considering a career change. I went into k12 education due to the mission, but I'm burning out on the time/emotional investment in relation to the compensation.

booleandilemma 9y ago

What is the difference between a computer programmer and a software application developer? Aren’t these titles used interchangeably?

pmorici 9y ago
the term "programmer" is generally used to describe software jobs where you aren't expected to do much design or critical thinking or have in-depth knowledge of computer science or engineering concepts. A good analogy might be like the difference between a doctor and a nurse.
- fineline 9y ago
  I design and implement system architecture and user interfaces, manage people and projects, plan future areas of R&D, etc. and I still call myself (in conversation) a computer programmer. I find it helps distinguish me from all the talking heads in this industry who couldn't actually build an information system if their lives depended upon it.
TheCoelacanth 9y ago
As titles they are often used interchangeably, but the BLS categorizes them separately based on kind of an old-fashioned idea of how software is developed. The distinction is that software developers[1] plan out how software will work and the computer programmers[2] write the code to make it work. The idea that these are separate roles is rapidly going out of fashion in the industry and is already pretty outdated. Only 300k workers are categorized as computer programmers while 1.3 million are categorized as software developers and on top of that the number of software developers is projected to grow by 24% over the next decade while the number of computer programmers is projected to decline by 7%. [1] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/... [2] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/computer-programmers.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/...
- ams6110 9y ago

anonytrary 9y ago

52% of network architects don't have a degree but 95% of app developers do? This is the exact opposite as I would expect.

closeparen 9y ago
A network architect is an experienced technician (the "blue-collar" form of IT) who graduated from help desk and break/fix to helping out with project work to getting to design and lead projects. In that world, you may have a trade-school degree in IT/MIS and/or vendor certifications, but a CS degree isn't going to help you operate the Windows Server admin panel, configure Cisco routers, know which model number of HP switch is appropriate for a situation, or make sure that your underlings get the low-voltage cabling and patch panels right. It's going to help you write Windows Server and the router firmware that technicians operate. Planning, installing, configuring, and integrating off-the-shelf components to create an IT environment for a business is a totally different world from software engineering, particularly in the Silicon Valley style.
- anonytrary 9y ago
  Thanks, this is very clear now. I must have been confusing "network architect" with "software architect".
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
rhizome 9y ago
Sysadmins are also historically a non-degree position, because there is no degree for it. People who come out of university with the skills and interest to go into systems or neteng often have learned through working for the university's IT department, not through classwork.
- lsc 9y ago
  >Sysadmins are also historically a non-degree position, because there is no degree for it. Sure there is. Computer information systems. Management information systems. Computer Information Technology. Now, as far as I can tell, these are degrees usually offered at community colleges and lower status four year schools. And for that matter, I've spent much of my career as a sysadmin, and the only people I've met with those degrees have been managers who have moved in from other industries rather than moving up. But the degrees exist, even if Stanford or Berkeley probably won't offer them.

brandonmenc 9y ago

> “The modern factory job is a mid-tech job” No it is not. Anyone could work a factory job. The least intelligent, least motivated people could punch a clock and earn a decent living tightening the same bolt a thousand times a day, all day long. At best, mid-tech jobs are like modern clerking jobs, but even that's pushing it. The modern factory job is fast-food, and the lack of associated pay and benefits is a major problem. Too many people are simply not smart enough to be programmers.

AlotOfReading 9y ago
Some factory jobs are that repetitive, but most factories are increasingly automated and the skills needed to maintain that automation are every bit as technical as programming.
- briandear 9y ago
  Yes but the article wasn’t talking about modern factory jobs.. it suggested that mid-tech is equivalent to the factory jobs of yesteryear — which were repetitive and not necessarily requiring superior intellect (relatively speaking.)
lsc 9y ago
>Anyone could work a factory job. The least intelligent, least motivated people could punch a clock and earn a decent living tightening the same bolt a thousand times a day, all day long. I don't have personal experience as a '50s factory worker, but I do have some experience assembling things and working on cars. I doubt this description of factory work being completely brainless. If you've ever tried to watch someone who isn't mechanically inclined assemble anything, you can see that there is a skill in fitting things together. Even if your job is to tighten that same bolt every day, you've still gotta figure out how to properly torque it; too loose and the bolt comes out, too tight and you shear the goddamn thing off. Use one of those old style torque wrenches and you're gonna be way slower than the next guy.
- brandonmenc 9y ago

shas3 9y ago

Bizarre article full of unsubstantiated claims (e.g. Midwest cities generally “spending years in the doldrums” huh? Twin Cities, Chicago, Kansas City, Indianapolis, etc. have consistently been doing well) and sketchy assumptions (mid-tech blue collar?). This whole tendency to bunch all mid-west cities together is ignorant and condescending. Also, “decline of mid west cities” is mostly a story of cities not necessarily the entire region or even the cities’ suburbs (Detroit’s wealthy suburbs are as rich as ever). Generally muddled piece.

iamdave 9y ago
Indianapolis, etc. have consistently been doing well I can't speak for the other examples, but...ask me how I know you don't live in Indianapolis. This city definitely has a lot of potential to really be something even greater (than I think it is now), and I'm proud to call it my home-but don't romanticize it too much. We are having a series of existential crises here; just jumped out of one political fire and into another with state and municipal leaders (oh dear god are we about to see the end of Unigov? Probably not but a man can dream), schools are laughably bad, roads are hilariously worse (I challenge you to drive a few miles north on Meridian street and try to not have your car swallowed by one of the hundreds of near-car sized potholes), but hey....rent's cheap, so we've got that going for us. Which is nice. Don't sleep on Naptown, if that was your overall sentiment, for sure. Don't sleep on us because there's some rumblings of a real explosion of change underneath it all, and I think we've got nowhere to go but up...same time though yeah we've got a LOT of problems that are going require some very painful decision making in the next 10 years and we gotta look that horse square in the mouth.
- nightski 9y ago
  Let's not pretend things are any different in California.
  - avs733 9y ago
    I currently live in Indiana but my family is mostly in CA. Most of the dirt roads in Death Valley are nicer than most of the major roads in Indiana. Yes weather is a major player...but the roads are terrible. They don't invest in the schools - aggressively. And farmers as a group are antigovernment to the point that it imperils the ability of the state government to function and attract talent. I started applying for post graduate school jobs in the fall. I applied for one in IN and one in CA that have the same salary. Given the choice, I will pick CA.

cylinder 9y ago

Quartz is quickly becoming a glossy version of a clickbait farm

wavefunction 9y ago

"mid tech" is an interesting descriptor because I'm doing the much the same work as Silicon Valleyites despite not having a degree. Not having a degree has cut me off from some opportunities but I can just pursue those in my own time. I guess I find as I get older less value in the opinions of folks out in SV as I read more and more crazy things about the place and the environment out there. I do appreciate the opportunity for folks who love that environment to partake of it though. I also appreciate the functional advances coming out of SV like libraries and frameworks that I get to use and improve my own work but at the end of the work day I love getting home to my .25 acre lot with my two dogs glad to see me and go for a nice walk in a green-belt. I'm going to be dead some day so why not enjoy what I have.

fictionfuture 9y ago

Silicon Valley is mostly a place for group thinkers with a "get rich quick" mentality and rich parents. That was my impression after living in Sf working as a CEO for 5 years.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]