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Implied in finishing university is the expectation that you have been taught what you need to make it in the work place. Its part of the social contract. Its

by araes 9y ago

Implied in finishing university is the expectation that you have been taught what you need to make it in the work place. Its part of the social contract. Its what I paid you for right? Naturally, they answer with high confidence in their readiness. People who have worked a long time are in part answering for themselves. They look back at how much they've learned, changed, and developed. How much they had to learn on the job that was never taught in school. Were they actually unprepared, or are they just judging new grads based on a viewpoint that's colored by several years? When I was a hiring mgr, this could be one of the most frustrating things in a room. Trying to push to take a chance on a new grad, and having several others tell me they'd prefer the industry veteran who's lateraling. Even for "entry level" positions. Amazing how many people with really good CV's were applying for "entry level" jobs. On a last thought, there also seems to be a strong lack of faith that people can learn on the job from hiring folks. Maybe its just the above mentioned flood of high CV talent. Software for example: You know: c, c++, java, javascript, haskell, and perl. Ah, but you don't know Ruby, and we're really looking for Ruby. But, I know 6 other languages, I can learn one more...

expertentipp 9y ago
There is lack of faith that people can learn another Angular version even. You have experience wih 1.6?! We do TS+Angular 4 over here, sorry mate! Such companies are simply not hiring - bragging, teasing, probing the market perhaps - but certainly not hiring. Not only the framework landscape is broken but as well people are extremely anal about their preferences and choices.
- walshemj 9y ago
  And what is the half-life of the latest and greatest frame work any way :-)
rootlocus 9y ago
> But, I know 6 other languages, I can learn one more... I doubt you professionally know 6 languages. There's a lot more to learn about the runtime, frameworks and tools of a language than there is syntax.
- yters 9y ago
  If the framework solves a common problem, then the structure will be familiar. Stackoverflow to fill in the gaps.
  - rootlocus 9y ago
    > Stackoverflow to fill in the gaps. That's what juniors do. Please don't use Stackoverflow professionally like that. You should consider reading a book on the subject which provides more context and better practices.
- dozzie 9y ago
  You're up to a surprise. It's not really that difficult to learn six languages to a level of using them professionally. I've seen it happen. And you overestimate the differences between the runtimes and frameworks. Most of them work in a very similar way to one another.
  - rootlocus 9y ago
    > You're up to a surprise. That implies I don't have a clue what I'm talking about, which is discourteous. > I've seen it happen. Perhaps we don't use the same definition for "professionally". I meant being "senior" in that field. Of course anyone can learn 6 languages to a certain degree. My original post was supposed to be "I doubt you are senior with 6 languages". > And you overestimate the differences between the runtimes and frameworks. Just because all VMs have a GC and a JIT doesn't mean they work very similar to one another. Not to mention unmanaged languages.
    - watwut 9y ago
      The differences between GC or JIT are completely irrelevant to majority of professional jobs. There are some where it matters, but again, it is not that difficult to learn about new one. There are some conceptual difficulties when jumping from typed language to non-typed, but that is about hardest thing. Also, compare to quite usual career advice on fake it till you make it which is present in this thread too (by someone succesfull).
dozzie 9y ago
> Implied in finishing university is the expectation that you have been taught what you need to make it in the work place. Its part of the social contract. No. That's not contract, it's a dumb expectation, though shared by many. Vocational school is for training for a job. Universities have no sensible way to teach how industry operates, while industry does have the capabilities for teaching that.
- bjz_ 9y ago
  Agreed, and I think it's harmful to universities to expect that. We need universities to excel at what they are good at - preparing students to push the frontier of their field. They're not job factories for industry and shouldn't have to try to be.
  - flukus 9y ago
    IME it's self inflicted harm, most of the university advertisements I see feed that expectation. Slogans like "education for the real world" and "industry focused" get thrown around all the time. Hard to blame students/society for expecting universities to work as advertised.
austincheney 9y ago
> Implied in finishing university is the expectation that you have been taught what you need to make it in the work place. Its part of the social contract. Its what I paid you for right? Then the person misunderstood what education is and reality is about to slap them in the face. I started a career before graduating college and now have two simultaneous careers. The benefit of having multiple simultaneous careers is that you can see the comparative strengths and weaknesses of each (things other people don't see) and adjust yourself accordingly.
- jackvalentine 9y ago
  > Then the person misunderstood what education is and reality is about to slap them in the face. Sure, but that doesn't change that it's heavily implied by the education industry and society as you grow up what OP said. If your entire life someone's been telling you an orange is an apple then when asked "what's that?" you'll answer an apple.
  - austincheney 9y ago
    Perhaps I am fortunate to have grown up around technology. I knew network engineers who went to work straight out of high school without any college making $80k per year. There is a college major to configure routers and switches. It is just something you learn from gaining access to the hardware, reading books, and practicing. I knew this because I was interested in technology and I was find people who were already making it in technology. I didn't wait around for somebody to simply gift me with a job. I know not everybody has this. If you think jobs are just something you happily pull off a store shelf like shopping in a grocery store merely because you got some college you are in for a world of hurt. I could feel sorry for people who had absolutely no way of knowing better. Whether or not I feel sorry for these people the reality of the situation remains the same. Bottom line: Don't waste your time feeling sorry for people with first world problems.
    - jackvalentine 9y ago
      Recognising the issue doesn’t require you to feel sorry for them.

by araes 9y ago

expertentipp 9y ago

There is lack of faith that people can learn another Angular version even. You have experience wih 1.6?! We do TS+Angular 4 over here, sorry mate! Such companies are simply not hiring - bragging, teasing, probing the market perhaps - but certainly not hiring. Not only the framework landscape is broken but as well people are extremely anal about their preferences and choices.

walshemj 9y ago
And what is the half-life of the latest and greatest frame work any way :-)

rootlocus 9y ago

> But, I know 6 other languages, I can learn one more... I doubt you professionally know 6 languages. There's a lot more to learn about the runtime, frameworks and tools of a language than there is syntax.

yters 9y ago
If the framework solves a common problem, then the structure will be familiar. Stackoverflow to fill in the gaps.
- rootlocus 9y ago
  > Stackoverflow to fill in the gaps. That's what juniors do. Please don't use Stackoverflow professionally like that. You should consider reading a book on the subject which provides more context and better practices.
dozzie 9y ago
You're up to a surprise. It's not really that difficult to learn six languages to a level of using them professionally. I've seen it happen. And you overestimate the differences between the runtimes and frameworks. Most of them work in a very similar way to one another.
- rootlocus 9y ago
  > You're up to a surprise. That implies I don't have a clue what I'm talking about, which is discourteous. > I've seen it happen. Perhaps we don't use the same definition for "professionally". I meant being "senior" in that field. Of course anyone can learn 6 languages to a certain degree. My original post was supposed to be "I doubt you are senior with 6 languages". > And you overestimate the differences between the runtimes and frameworks. Just because all VMs have a GC and a JIT doesn't mean they work very similar to one another. Not to mention unmanaged languages.
  - watwut 9y ago
    The differences between GC or JIT are completely irrelevant to majority of professional jobs. There are some where it matters, but again, it is not that difficult to learn about new one. There are some conceptual difficulties when jumping from typed language to non-typed, but that is about hardest thing. Also, compare to quite usual career advice on fake it till you make it which is present in this thread too (by someone succesfull).

dozzie 9y ago

> Implied in finishing university is the expectation that you have been taught what you need to make it in the work place. Its part of the social contract. No. That's not contract, it's a dumb expectation, though shared by many. Vocational school is for training for a job. Universities have no sensible way to teach how industry operates, while industry does have the capabilities for teaching that.

bjz_ 9y ago
Agreed, and I think it's harmful to universities to expect that. We need universities to excel at what they are good at - preparing students to push the frontier of their field. They're not job factories for industry and shouldn't have to try to be.
- flukus 9y ago
  IME it's self inflicted harm, most of the university advertisements I see feed that expectation. Slogans like "education for the real world" and "industry focused" get thrown around all the time. Hard to blame students/society for expecting universities to work as advertised.

austincheney 9y ago

> Implied in finishing university is the expectation that you have been taught what you need to make it in the work place. Its part of the social contract. Its what I paid you for right? Then the person misunderstood what education is and reality is about to slap them in the face. I started a career before graduating college and now have two simultaneous careers. The benefit of having multiple simultaneous careers is that you can see the comparative strengths and weaknesses of each (things other people don't see) and adjust yourself accordingly.

jackvalentine 9y ago
> Then the person misunderstood what education is and reality is about to slap them in the face. Sure, but that doesn't change that it's heavily implied by the education industry and society as you grow up what OP said. If your entire life someone's been telling you an orange is an apple then when asked "what's that?" you'll answer an apple.
- austincheney 9y ago
  Perhaps I am fortunate to have grown up around technology. I knew network engineers who went to work straight out of high school without any college making $80k per year. There is a college major to configure routers and switches. It is just something you learn from gaining access to the hardware, reading books, and practicing. I knew this because I was interested in technology and I was find people who were already making it in technology. I didn't wait around for somebody to simply gift me with a job. I know not everybody has this. If you think jobs are just something you happily pull off a store shelf like shopping in a grocery store merely because you got some college you are in for a world of hurt. I could feel sorry for people who had absolutely no way of knowing better. Whether or not I feel sorry for these people the reality of the situation remains the same. Bottom line: Don't waste your time feeling sorry for people with first world problems.
  - jackvalentine 9y ago
    Recognising the issue doesn’t require you to feel sorry for them.