5 ms·

Because IOTA is rekt, it has been for some time, and this is just what you should expect from people who try to roll their own cryptography, then get defensive

by loxias 9y ago

Because IOTA is rekt, it has been for some time, and this is just what you should expect from people who try to roll their own cryptography, then get defensive when a notable real cryptographer points out flaws.

oh_sigh 9y ago
Agreed. FD: I've 'shorted' IOTA in any way possible, mostly through altcoins which may actually deliver on IOTAs promises. As soon as I heard they were using ternary as some kind of competitive advantage, I lost all faith in them.
- hatsunearu 9y ago
  somehow they claim ternery is easier to implement in hardware when it's strictly false in every way.
  - loxias 9y ago
    I have a vague memory of once upon a time reading a paper alleging that if you could start everything over again from the beginning, that somehow ternary was more efficient than binary for a digital architecture, something having to do with power usage. But other than that it just sounds like nonsense.
    - hatsunearu 9y ago
      Love to see that paper; seems like nonsense to me. If someone came up with a more optimized transistor architecture than CMOS I'd love to have a look at it.
      - loxias 9y ago
        Oh! I remembered more details about it if it helps. It has to do with e being the "most efficient" numbering base. The reason e is the "most efficient" has to do with wanting to minimize both the size of the alphabet of symbols as well as the number of digits in an average computation. If you allow for a non-integer base, and a non-integer number of digits, the optimum base is e. e rounds to 3. ;-) Now, full disclosure, I'm not entirely sure I believe in this, I'm just citing sources but check these out: http://bit-player.org/wp-content/extras/bph-publications/AmSci-2001-11-Hayes-ternary.pdf http://bit-player.org/wp-content/extras/bph-publications/AmS... https://hackaday.com/2016/12/16/building-the-first-ternary-microprocessor/ https://hackaday.com/2016/12/16/building-the-first-ternary-m... Also, Don Knuth likes balanced ternary, and, well, I guess that counts for something. (again, personally I have no idea if I think it's nonsense or not)
        FullyFunctional 9y ago
        Yeah, it's complete bullocks. Rest assured, if anything was better than binary for _logic_ then it would already have taken over the world. Binary have a lot of wonderful properties (not least noise immunity) and deserves a lot of credit for the success of modern technology. Note, the ENIAC wasn't binary! It was based on decimal. However there are places where we look beyond binary; most notably in storage where data density is job one. The vast majority of FLASH is using MLC (4-values) or TLC (8-values) which need heroic circuits to recover the data. But note, these are 2^2 and 2^3, still binary based.
        IWeldMelons 9y ago
        It is not "complete bollocks",it just not as efficient as it appears to be. The reason for the (supposedly) higher efficiency of ternary logic is so called Radix Economy (wikipedia has an article). Properly implemented ternary (with a split power supply - positive, negative and ground) would have the same noise immunity as binary.
        FullyFunctional 9y ago
        "It is not "complete bollocks",it just not as efficient as it appears to be." That's a contradictory statement. If it was as efficient as claimed it wouldn't be bollocks. But it isn't, thus, bollocks. "(with a split power supply - positive, negative and ground) would have the same noise immunity as binary." [citation needed] I'm not a EE, but my understanding from EE friends is that isn't true.
        ric2b 9y ago
        > Properly implemented ternary (with a split power supply - positive, negative and ground) would have the same noise immunity as binary. Only if you increase the supply voltage such that: V+tern - GNDtern == V+bin - GNDbin == GNDtern - V-tern
- loxias 9y ago
  Totally. And not to sound holier than thou, I'm guilty of "unnecessary re-implementation" possibly more than most. I use my own window manager, have written my own high performance disk archival compression, wrote my own (super)multichannel (>8) lossless audio format, am working on my own large sequence data (think: DNA) native clustering algorithm.... But for the love of god man, /never invent your own crypto/
  - loxias 9y ago
    Also, honest question: Anyone know of any exchange or means to take a short position on IOTA? I only did so though "never buying any".
    - charleslmunger 9y ago
      Friendly reminder that iota's cryptographic weaknesses are immaterial, because it's not actually a decentralized currency - there's the coordinator, a server run by the iota team that controls transactions. The entire value of it today is speculation - if a demonstration of the complete incompetence and dishonesty of the team, exposed by a researchers at a world renowned institution that laymen are familiar with wouldn't make the price drop to zero, what hope is there that the crash will happen before you have to close your short position? And if crypto currencies crash, what is the likelihood that whatever exchange you placed your bet on is still solvent? The market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent. Be content to eat popcorn and wait.

by loxias 9y ago

oh_sigh 9y ago

Agreed. FD: I've 'shorted' IOTA in any way possible, mostly through altcoins which may actually deliver on IOTAs promises. As soon as I heard they were using ternary as some kind of competitive advantage, I lost all faith in them.

hatsunearu 9y ago
somehow they claim ternery is easier to implement in hardware when it's strictly false in every way.
- loxias 9y ago
  I have a vague memory of once upon a time reading a paper alleging that if you could start everything over again from the beginning, that somehow ternary was more efficient than binary for a digital architecture, something having to do with power usage. But other than that it just sounds like nonsense.
  - hatsunearu 9y ago
    Love to see that paper; seems like nonsense to me. If someone came up with a more optimized transistor architecture than CMOS I'd love to have a look at it.
    - loxias 9y ago
      Oh! I remembered more details about it if it helps. It has to do with e being the "most efficient" numbering base. The reason e is the "most efficient" has to do with wanting to minimize both the size of the alphabet of symbols as well as the number of digits in an average computation. If you allow for a non-integer base, and a non-integer number of digits, the optimum base is e. e rounds to 3. ;-) Now, full disclosure, I'm not entirely sure I believe in this, I'm just citing sources but check these out: http://bit-player.org/wp-content/extras/bph-publications/AmSci-2001-11-Hayes-ternary.pdf http://bit-player.org/wp-content/extras/bph-publications/AmS... https://hackaday.com/2016/12/16/building-the-first-ternary-microprocessor/ https://hackaday.com/2016/12/16/building-the-first-ternary-m... Also, Don Knuth likes balanced ternary, and, well, I guess that counts for something. (again, personally I have no idea if I think it's nonsense or not)
      - FullyFunctional 9y ago
        Yeah, it's complete bullocks. Rest assured, if anything was better than binary for _logic_ then it would already have taken over the world. Binary have a lot of wonderful properties (not least noise immunity) and deserves a lot of credit for the success of modern technology. Note, the ENIAC wasn't binary! It was based on decimal. However there are places where we look beyond binary; most notably in storage where data density is job one. The vast majority of FLASH is using MLC (4-values) or TLC (8-values) which need heroic circuits to recover the data. But note, these are 2^2 and 2^3, still binary based.
        IWeldMelons 9y ago
        It is not "complete bollocks",it just not as efficient as it appears to be. The reason for the (supposedly) higher efficiency of ternary logic is so called Radix Economy (wikipedia has an article). Properly implemented ternary (with a split power supply - positive, negative and ground) would have the same noise immunity as binary.
        FullyFunctional 9y ago
        "It is not "complete bollocks",it just not as efficient as it appears to be." That's a contradictory statement. If it was as efficient as claimed it wouldn't be bollocks. But it isn't, thus, bollocks. "(with a split power supply - positive, negative and ground) would have the same noise immunity as binary." [citation needed] I'm not a EE, but my understanding from EE friends is that isn't true.
        ric2b 9y ago
        > Properly implemented ternary (with a split power supply - positive, negative and ground) would have the same noise immunity as binary. Only if you increase the supply voltage such that: V+tern - GNDtern == V+bin - GNDbin == GNDtern - V-tern
loxias 9y ago
Totally. And not to sound holier than thou, I'm guilty of "unnecessary re-implementation" possibly more than most. I use my own window manager, have written my own high performance disk archival compression, wrote my own (super)multichannel (>8) lossless audio format, am working on my own large sequence data (think: DNA) native clustering algorithm.... But for the love of god man, /never invent your own crypto/
- loxias 9y ago
  Also, honest question: Anyone know of any exchange or means to take a short position on IOTA? I only did so though "never buying any".
  - charleslmunger 9y ago
    Friendly reminder that iota's cryptographic weaknesses are immaterial, because it's not actually a decentralized currency - there's the coordinator, a server run by the iota team that controls transactions. The entire value of it today is speculation - if a demonstration of the complete incompetence and dishonesty of the team, exposed by a researchers at a world renowned institution that laymen are familiar with wouldn't make the price drop to zero, what hope is there that the crash will happen before you have to close your short position? And if crypto currencies crash, what is the likelihood that whatever exchange you placed your bet on is still solvent? The market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent. Be content to eat popcorn and wait.