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You're right, being the kind of citizen you want to be is undeniable a good thing, but it's also undeniably useless. It individualizes a collective problem, the

You're right, being the kind of citizen you want to be is undeniable a good thing, but it's also undeniably useless. It individualizes a collective problem, thereby being an ineffective solution. The only way to resist power is with collective action that substantially challenges it.

mulmen 9y ago
I disagree with your defeatist message and I consider it harmful if spread. Individual action is the foundation of our entire social system. It is not "useless" by any measure. I don't want to use AMP in email so I'm not going to. It's just that easy. What are you doing and what do you suggest the rest of us do? Is voting with our wallets not a thing any longer?
- k_sh 9y ago
  Jumping in under here to highlight your first point: collective action is, literally, a large set of coordinated individual actions.
  - jadedhacker 9y ago
    That's true but the key word is coordinated. Without coordinated action, we're back at individual action. Coordinated action might be protests, boycotts, etc. Usually there are one or more _institutions_, that is a cohesive group of people, backing and advancing the interests of the group. This is a very powerful model. A familiar example is the NRA. It's not a political party, but it advances the interests of its members relentlessly. Institutions of the left include things like Planned Parenthood. Often, there are issue advocacy organizations that spring up when corporations are doing bad things. Often the strategy is to do things that impact the corporation financially, which short of legal threats is basically the only thing they understand. Anything short of that can be brushed off with rationalizations by various powerful stakeholders within the corporation. Basically, the point I'm trying to make is that individual action is essential, but not sufficient to make a difference when it counts.
    - mr_spothawk 9y ago
      funny thing that, I went to the their membership page for the first time today because I wanted to know how to express my individual support. I'm not an owner, and I will likely get a membership ... because it's an advocacy I care about.
- Avshalom 9y ago
  And how productive do you think "voting with our wallets" can be for a product we don't pay for from a company with more money than all of us combined?
  - ocdtrekkie 9y ago
    That's the problem with Google being the default search for almost all browsers and almost all phones: The entire tech industry could unite against Google, and Google still has literally billions of users who don't know better.
  - baddox 9y ago
    Probably at least slightly more productive that literally voting in actual elections.
    - Avshalom 9y ago
      If I had a solution I'd be telling you about it I assure you. I'm just saying that vote with your wallet and put your faith in the market is also not a solution in this case.
  - username223 9y ago
    You're "voting with your data," which for a company like Google is essentially the same thing. If you don't hand them data, they can't monetize it.
    - tscs37 9y ago
      Google auotmatically collects data on you the moment you visit and site with Google Analytics or a +1 button or when using Google Ads. Or using youtube. While it's certainly not totally impossible to vote with your data, you should remember that you are the product for google. The customers are advertisers. Not you.
  - mulmen 9y ago
    You're right, we should just use Google for everything because they have money. All is lost. Thanks for opening my eyes, you have really made a positive impact. /s On a serious note I don't like the negativity in your comment and I don't think there is anything insightful about it. I believe the free market is based on individual actions. I will continue to choose services based on how well they serve my needs.
- jadedhacker 9y ago
  I actually intended my message to be inspiring. ;) My point was that you can't go it alone and there are friends that will help you. I left a more theoretical justification in another sub-thread.
- ballenf 9y ago
  People may not like a compromise approach, but I've switched to using standard IMAP-based mail readers with gmail. If more people did that instead of using the gmail app and web site, Google would maybe see that AMP'd email wouldn't reach a large number of their customers. Then again, maybe AMP is their solution to this third-party interface "problem": create an incompatible "feature" that will encourage or force users to abandon standards-based tools. Kind of like what's happened with Google Talk. God I miss the Mac's Messages app being able to interface with my work's gsuite chat. FWIW, the iOS email client has improved a lot over the last few iOS versions. Worth checking out if you haven't looked at it for a while.

mulmen 9y ago

I disagree with your defeatist message and I consider it harmful if spread. Individual action is the foundation of our entire social system. It is not "useless" by any measure. I don't want to use AMP in email so I'm not going to. It's just that easy. What are you doing and what do you suggest the rest of us do? Is voting with our wallets not a thing any longer?

k_sh 9y ago
Jumping in under here to highlight your first point: collective action is, literally, a large set of coordinated individual actions.
- jadedhacker 9y ago
  That's true but the key word is coordinated. Without coordinated action, we're back at individual action. Coordinated action might be protests, boycotts, etc. Usually there are one or more _institutions_, that is a cohesive group of people, backing and advancing the interests of the group. This is a very powerful model. A familiar example is the NRA. It's not a political party, but it advances the interests of its members relentlessly. Institutions of the left include things like Planned Parenthood. Often, there are issue advocacy organizations that spring up when corporations are doing bad things. Often the strategy is to do things that impact the corporation financially, which short of legal threats is basically the only thing they understand. Anything short of that can be brushed off with rationalizations by various powerful stakeholders within the corporation. Basically, the point I'm trying to make is that individual action is essential, but not sufficient to make a difference when it counts.
  - mr_spothawk 9y ago
    funny thing that, I went to the their membership page for the first time today because I wanted to know how to express my individual support. I'm not an owner, and I will likely get a membership ... because it's an advocacy I care about.
Avshalom 9y ago
And how productive do you think "voting with our wallets" can be for a product we don't pay for from a company with more money than all of us combined?
- ocdtrekkie 9y ago
  That's the problem with Google being the default search for almost all browsers and almost all phones: The entire tech industry could unite against Google, and Google still has literally billions of users who don't know better.
- baddox 9y ago
  Probably at least slightly more productive that literally voting in actual elections.
  - Avshalom 9y ago
    If I had a solution I'd be telling you about it I assure you. I'm just saying that vote with your wallet and put your faith in the market is also not a solution in this case.
- username223 9y ago
  You're "voting with your data," which for a company like Google is essentially the same thing. If you don't hand them data, they can't monetize it.
  - tscs37 9y ago
    Google auotmatically collects data on you the moment you visit and site with Google Analytics or a +1 button or when using Google Ads. Or using youtube. While it's certainly not totally impossible to vote with your data, you should remember that you are the product for google. The customers are advertisers. Not you.
- mulmen 9y ago
  You're right, we should just use Google for everything because they have money. All is lost. Thanks for opening my eyes, you have really made a positive impact. /s On a serious note I don't like the negativity in your comment and I don't think there is anything insightful about it. I believe the free market is based on individual actions. I will continue to choose services based on how well they serve my needs.
jadedhacker 9y ago
I actually intended my message to be inspiring. ;) My point was that you can't go it alone and there are friends that will help you. I left a more theoretical justification in another sub-thread.
ballenf 9y ago
People may not like a compromise approach, but I've switched to using standard IMAP-based mail readers with gmail. If more people did that instead of using the gmail app and web site, Google would maybe see that AMP'd email wouldn't reach a large number of their customers. Then again, maybe AMP is their solution to this third-party interface "problem": create an incompatible "feature" that will encourage or force users to abandon standards-based tools. Kind of like what's happened with Google Talk. God I miss the Mac's Messages app being able to interface with my work's gsuite chat. FWIW, the iOS email client has improved a lot over the last few iOS versions. Worth checking out if you haven't looked at it for a while.