4 ms·

Gödel also believed his refrigerator was emitting poison gas.

by rothrock 9y ago

jamiepenney 9y ago
Back then, wouldn't it have been? I think they used ammonia as a coolant initially.
- TomMarius 9y ago
  Freon, from Wikipedia: > They are stable, nonflammable, moderately toxic gases or liquids which have typically been used as refrigerants and as aerosol propellants. Edit: why am I getting downvoted for this...?
  - tyingq 9y ago
    “back then”
    - TomMarius 9y ago
      ... yes? Freon was used widely as far back as 1935. Invented in late 20's.
      - tyingq 9y ago
        And overlapped with ammonia for quite some time.
  - dgacmu 9y ago
    I'm not sure. I think you're right, from this timeline: http://www.greatachievements.org/?id=3854 http://www.greatachievements.org/?id=3854 Freon was invented in 1928, and started mass production a few years later: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freon By 1935, 8 million refrigerators had been sold using Freon as their refrigerant: https://www.thoughtco.com/history-of-freon-4072212 https://www.thoughtco.com/history-of-freon-4072212 His refrigerator comment was some time before 1953: https://plus.maths.org/content/goumldel-and-limits-logic https://plus.maths.org/content/goumldel-and-limits-logic though another source places it around Einstein's death in 1955:[1] ... ahhh, the wiki hole is deep today. :) [Edited to fix: date of refrigerator comment upper bounded by 1953, not in 1953]. So it's possible he formed the opinion pre-freon, but it seems more likely that it was during the Freon era. [1] https://books.google.com/books?id=iWy1AAAAQBAJ&pg=PA332&lpg=PA332&dq=godel+refrigerator+poisoning&source=bl&ots=5eYWEYOufk&sig=yQ2CXucFU7JElpLMLNWH546yrGU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi_iZOHsr_ZAhVCrVkKHQzCB5gQ6AEIZzAJ#v=onepage&q=godel%20refrigerator%20poisoning&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=iWy1AAAAQBAJ&pg=PA332&lpg=...
    - labster 9y ago
      To be fair CFCs are toxic to humans, but only once they escape to the upper atmosphere to decrease the LD50 of sunlight. Of course in 1953, there was no way Erdos could have known that.
      - TomMarius 9y ago
        Still not a reason to downvote a comment that just clarified its parent.
      - M_Bakhtiari 9y ago
        What's the LD50 of sunlight, and how exactly does Erdős enter into the equation?
        labster 9y ago
        Ugh I meant Godel. All of these mathematicians get me confused. Because of his incompleteness theorem, I'll have to leave your other question unanswered.
        grzm 9y ago
        Fun fact: Gödel's Erdős number is 3. https://oakland.edu/enp/erdpaths/ https://oakland.edu/enp/erdpaths/
    - makomk 9y ago
      Ammonia and other nasty chemicals remained in use well after then. For example, apparently GE sold their Monitor Top-style fridges with sulphur dioxide or methyl formate as the refrigerant until at least 1936 and they stayed in use for decades after they were discontinued.
      - chiph 9y ago
        My parents had one of those and used it until the early 2000's as their "garage beer fridge". They sold it for a substantial amount to a collector when they moved. Dad was a chemical engineer and I'm not sure he knew how toxic the refrigerant it contained was - he probably would have gotten rid of it sooner if he'd known.
raverbashing 9y ago
Yes, his mental health was complicated. Doesn't negate his theoretical contributions though.
Parcissons 9y ago
Gödel ruined mathematics - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_incompleteness_theorems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_incompleteness_... Deep down its always a hackers mindset, be it law, finance or the sciences- finding the loop-holes and the brittle points - that one stone, the unconquered fortress rests upon, the one rivet holding the unsinkable ship together. Little wonder is it, that with such guys holding public conversations in cafes- the idea of the mad, evil professor formed in the public mind. After all- they sounded a little bit like terrorists, trying to break the matter of the world appart. PS: If you are in a field where re-combinatorics of unrelated things helps- slight schizophrenia is a plus.
Y_Y 9y ago
That's a bit dismissive. Goedel was correct about making the US a dictatorship. The fact that the amending clause allows unlimited amendment (particularly of the amending clause itself) means a series of malicious amendments could irrevocably change the constitution to that of a dictatorship and forbid returning to a democracy. Now maybe people would just give up on the constitution at that point, but in terms of the overall legal system he's dead right. [edit: for more information please see: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2010183 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2010183 ]
- anigbrowl 9y ago
  I've always thought it was more likely over article 2 section 3, which allows the President to adjourn both houses of Congress indefinitely under certain circumstances. If one was expecting to be impeached, for example, a little procedural hiccup on the timetable of adjournment would be sufficient to suspend legislative business altogether.
  - jacquesm 9y ago
    Let's hope that his insights won't be put to the test.
- snomad 9y ago
  When we get to that level of a flaw, it is nice to remember that technically our own hollowed constitution is simply an illegal overwrite of the Articles of Confederation.

Gödel also believed his refrigerator was emitting poison gas.

jamiepenney 9y ago

Back then, wouldn't it have been? I think they used ammonia as a coolant initially.

TomMarius 9y ago
Freon, from Wikipedia: > They are stable, nonflammable, moderately toxic gases or liquids which have typically been used as refrigerants and as aerosol propellants. Edit: why am I getting downvoted for this...?
- tyingq 9y ago
  “back then”
  - TomMarius 9y ago
    ... yes? Freon was used widely as far back as 1935. Invented in late 20's.
    - tyingq 9y ago
      And overlapped with ammonia for quite some time.
- dgacmu 9y ago
  I'm not sure. I think you're right, from this timeline: http://www.greatachievements.org/?id=3854 http://www.greatachievements.org/?id=3854 Freon was invented in 1928, and started mass production a few years later: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freon By 1935, 8 million refrigerators had been sold using Freon as their refrigerant: https://www.thoughtco.com/history-of-freon-4072212 https://www.thoughtco.com/history-of-freon-4072212 His refrigerator comment was some time before 1953: https://plus.maths.org/content/goumldel-and-limits-logic https://plus.maths.org/content/goumldel-and-limits-logic though another source places it around Einstein's death in 1955:[1] ... ahhh, the wiki hole is deep today. :) [Edited to fix: date of refrigerator comment upper bounded by 1953, not in 1953]. So it's possible he formed the opinion pre-freon, but it seems more likely that it was during the Freon era. [1] https://books.google.com/books?id=iWy1AAAAQBAJ&pg=PA332&lpg=PA332&dq=godel+refrigerator+poisoning&source=bl&ots=5eYWEYOufk&sig=yQ2CXucFU7JElpLMLNWH546yrGU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi_iZOHsr_ZAhVCrVkKHQzCB5gQ6AEIZzAJ#v=onepage&q=godel%20refrigerator%20poisoning&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=iWy1AAAAQBAJ&pg=PA332&lpg=...
  - labster 9y ago
    To be fair CFCs are toxic to humans, but only once they escape to the upper atmosphere to decrease the LD50 of sunlight. Of course in 1953, there was no way Erdos could have known that.
    - TomMarius 9y ago
      Still not a reason to downvote a comment that just clarified its parent.
    - M_Bakhtiari 9y ago
      What's the LD50 of sunlight, and how exactly does Erdős enter into the equation?
      - labster 9y ago
        Ugh I meant Godel. All of these mathematicians get me confused. Because of his incompleteness theorem, I'll have to leave your other question unanswered.
        grzm 9y ago
        Fun fact: Gödel's Erdős number is 3. https://oakland.edu/enp/erdpaths/ https://oakland.edu/enp/erdpaths/
  - makomk 9y ago
    Ammonia and other nasty chemicals remained in use well after then. For example, apparently GE sold their Monitor Top-style fridges with sulphur dioxide or methyl formate as the refrigerant until at least 1936 and they stayed in use for decades after they were discontinued.
    - chiph 9y ago
      My parents had one of those and used it until the early 2000's as their "garage beer fridge". They sold it for a substantial amount to a collector when they moved. Dad was a chemical engineer and I'm not sure he knew how toxic the refrigerant it contained was - he probably would have gotten rid of it sooner if he'd known.

raverbashing 9y ago

Yes, his mental health was complicated. Doesn't negate his theoretical contributions though.

Parcissons 9y ago

Gödel ruined mathematics - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_incompleteness_theorems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_incompleteness_... Deep down its always a hackers mindset, be it law, finance or the sciences- finding the loop-holes and the brittle points - that one stone, the unconquered fortress rests upon, the one rivet holding the unsinkable ship together. Little wonder is it, that with such guys holding public conversations in cafes- the idea of the mad, evil professor formed in the public mind. After all- they sounded a little bit like terrorists, trying to break the matter of the world appart. PS: If you are in a field where re-combinatorics of unrelated things helps- slight schizophrenia is a plus.

Y_Y 9y ago

That's a bit dismissive. Goedel was correct about making the US a dictatorship. The fact that the amending clause allows unlimited amendment (particularly of the amending clause itself) means a series of malicious amendments could irrevocably change the constitution to that of a dictatorship and forbid returning to a democracy. Now maybe people would just give up on the constitution at that point, but in terms of the overall legal system he's dead right. [edit: for more information please see: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2010183 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2010183 ]

anigbrowl 9y ago
I've always thought it was more likely over article 2 section 3, which allows the President to adjourn both houses of Congress indefinitely under certain circumstances. If one was expecting to be impeached, for example, a little procedural hiccup on the timetable of adjournment would be sufficient to suspend legislative business altogether.
- jacquesm 9y ago
  Let's hope that his insights won't be put to the test.
snomad 9y ago
When we get to that level of a flaw, it is nice to remember that technically our own hollowed constitution is simply an illegal overwrite of the Articles of Confederation.