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Not sure why people are shocked by this, it's just the basic principle of diffusion. As long as america continue to allow free trade our wealth and jobs will f

Not sure why people are shocked by this, it's just the basic principle of diffusion. As long as america continue to allow free trade our wealth and jobs will flow out of the country as countries seek cheaper labor and sell it right back to America with no restrictions. The standard of living is raising in other countries while lowering in the US. Labor is already getting too expensive in China for cheap goods so companies are beginning to look at other countries for cheap labor, or bring manufacturing back to the US and us automation to make up the difference. The US really has no incentive to allow this to happen. We have the largest market in the world and could very easily do what China does if other countries want access to it. The US allows anybody into our markets while China bends them over the bargaining table requiring them to give up IP and form joint ventures with Chinese companies. What incentive does the US have to do "fair" trade? We have all the leverage in any negotiation but for years haven't used that leverage. At some point we're going to have to or the citizens are going to either rebel or accept lower standard of living, lower income, and lower life expectancy. I'm starting to believe that the reason Washington DC does nothing about the opioid crisis is because it benefits them. If thousands of unemployed, heavily armed rust belt men were not strung out and dying from addiction they probably would have organized and marched on DC a long time ago and got payback on the politicians who have sold them out for personal gain.

baxtr 9y ago
What’s your hypothesis that this is not happening elsewhere then? Let’s say in Germany. Free trade there as well...
- galieos_ghost 9y ago
  Germany has been called out many times for boosting trade by manipulating the Euro. They also have stronger unions which plays a roll. They also don't have millions of illegal immigrants with no federal labor protection driving wages down internally. https://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2017/05/26/trump-right-about-germany-trade-000445 https://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2017/05/26/trump-right...
  - anarazel 9y ago
    > They also don't have millions of illegal immigrants with no federal labor protection driving wages down internally. Oh, bs. There's plenty plenty access to cheap labor (intra EU migration, external immigration, asylees with work permits). The minimum wage is low enough to not matter much in most cases.
    - UncleEntity 9y ago
      I could go out right now and fill up a pickup truck with people willing to do a hard days work for less than minimum wage by driving a couple miles to the Home Depot where they hang out all day hoping for work. If I spoke Spanish well enough I could probably get some fairly skilled workers too who will work for a lot less than "standard wage".
      - anarazel 9y ago
        So? That's not a US only problem. Nor is it particularly related to illegal immigration. In a lot of areas of Germany you could do similar, except with a bit less uniformity about which language skill are needed.
  - walshemj 9y ago
    well the workers in Germany don't seem to be getting much of the reward do they?
jacquesm 9y ago
> As long as america continue to allow free trade our wealth and jobs will flow out of the country as countries seek cheaper labor and sell it right back to America with no restrictions. What an incredible nonsense. America has been pushing free trade all over the globe to be able to sell American products into other markets. They're not 'allowing' free trade, they have been pushing it for all it's worth and then some.
- mc32 9y ago
  And on balance we experience trade deficits. It's nice to have a free trade environment when it's reciprocal, but what has happened is that economies like Japan and China can play loose with the definition of free trade than most, and we kind of just put up with it. Few presidents and congress are willing to push the issue hard. Maybe Trump will finally call their bluff and impose sanctions.
  - jlmorton 9y ago
    > And on balance we experience trade deficits. Why are trade deficits necessarily bad? The trade deficit represents the spread between savings and investment. If net foreign investment in America is very high, then there will be a trade deficit. This is an accounting identity. Household debt as a percentage of GDP has been declining in the US for the past decade. This leads one to believe that the trade deficit currently represents high foreign investment in the US.
  - jacquesm 9y ago
    America has never had a 'reciprocal' free trade agreement, it has used the banner of free trade to engage in low level asymmetric trade wars. The stupid mistake they made was to ship their production capability to China, Japan got where they are under their own power, though the degree to which the Japanese bought Japanese products (mainly because of quality) meant that American products with a Japanese equivalent never stood much of a chance of being adopted in Japan. Free trade is based on merit (quality) and production capability, America has made some costly mistakes with both. Sanctions will hit the American consumer harder than the exporters.
endorphone 9y ago
Comments such as yours -- parroting Donald Trump like talking points -- are remarkable when you consider that the US has the second highest purchase power in the world. The US really has no incentive to allow this to happen Except that it has opened trade for US companies, and the reported numbers are often laughably misleading. Apple, for instance, nets almost all of the profits from an iPhone, yet in the trade balance an iPhone magically counts as a $1000 deficit with China. Further, it yields cheaper goods for Americans, and more efficiency. The US was literally built on free trade, and sits right near the top because of it, so to read these nonsensical "but what if" arguments borders on parody. It is just a profound ignorance of history and even the most rudimentary of economics. It is one of those amazing things where people really, really don't understand what they have until they lose it.
- galieos_ghost 9y ago
  Good for apple, good for the Chinese people working those jobs, bad for American citizens who would have been working those jobs. What is so wrong about using our leverage as the world's largest economy to protect the interests of our citizen's, just like China does?
  - craftyguy 9y ago
    So basically, "China is doing it, so why can't we"? They also heavily repress their citizens and are notorious for human rights violations.
    - galieos_ghost 9y ago
      Yes? Why does the US have to fight in the global economy with one armed tied behind our back? And how are trade policy and China's human rights abuses in any way related?
      - craftyguy 9y ago
        My point is that just because one country is doing it doesn't mean that it's the right thing to do. Isolationism, and the concept of 'us vs. them' at a global level needs to die. Humans are a global species, and the longer it takes us to realize that the worse off we will be at trying to solve global problems, like economics.
jlmorton 9y ago
> As long as america continue to allow free trade our wealth and jobs will flow out of the country as countries seek cheaper labor and sell it right back to America with no restrictions. Settings aside the fact that the US currently enjoys very low unemployment, with a steady rate of job creation that is now the longest jobs expansion in recorded US history, why do you believe other countries are willing to manufacture things and give them away to Americans for free? Dollars are only valuable as a medium of exchange for American goods and services. Chinese companies will export goods and services to America because there is a demand for US dollars to purchase American goods and services, which are generated by labor and sold for a profit. The idea that wealth and jobs could flow out of the country as a result of trade - whether free trade, or otherwise - is literally impossible.
- galieos_ghost 9y ago
  Workforce participation remains low, wages are stagnant, buying power accounting for inflation is much lower than it was in decades past, all while corporate profits are at record highs. The promise that outsourcing didn't matter because goods would be cheaper was a lie, Corporations are instead enjoying record profits on the difference in labor costs. You can keep spouting the same talking points that economists and politicians have for years but there's a reason people like Trump and Bernie Sanders were able to have so much success, people are hurting. The phrase "Don't piss on my shoe and tell me it's raining" comes to mind. The only reason people would vote for anti-establishment politicians is because the current establishment isn't doing it's job. If things were great someone like Trump would have never stood a chance.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
narrator 9y ago
The weird thing about your argument is if you take off the lense of national boundaries the argument gains an extra dimension and becomes more complex. For example, I recently heard from a friend with family in China that Americans who go to China can make $50 an hour private English tutoring rich Chinese kids. How can wages be rising so much in China and they are still wildly undercutting us? The other weird thing is Americans who move to low cost south east Asia locations and run dropship ecommerce stores that make $2000 a month and live like they were making 10 times that in the bay area. The friend of mine who makes his living expenses for two years in Argentina in two months doing webdev. The bottom line is someting is wrong with prices for things in America. Prices for education, price for health care, prices for rent. Everything is so expensive that people can't live on low wages and be content. When they just change their location all the prices wildly change relative to each other and it all makes sense. I don't have an easy answer, but some unusual economic phenomenon is going on that transcends national politics and it is important for a individual who can operate internationally to take note. of it.
- yusuke10 9y ago
  > For example, I recently heard from a friend with family in China that Americans who go to China can make $50 an hour private English tutoring rich Chinese kids. How can wages be rising so much in China and they are still wildly undercutting us? China is a country of HUGE income inequalities. You have a few people that make millions and you have few hundred million people make $500/year. The middle class for them makes only $800/month. Money all flows to the top to the government/state firms, and much eventually flows out to Canada/Australia/US. > The other weird thing is Americans who move to low cost south east Asia locations and run dropship ecommerce stores that make $2000 a month and live like they were making 10 times that in the bay area. Living abroad is good for young singles, bad for anyone else. There's bad weather, dirty food, dirty water, food poisoning, no access to good healthcare, lots of noise and pollution. Not to mention if you're an entrepreneur, you are not putting down a root, not making network connections you need for sales, not going to meetup events and learning new technologies, etc.
- lotsofpulp 9y ago
  It’s not an unusual phenomenon. It’s just the market at work, changing the prices due to changes in supply and demand. The price of people (aka their wage) goes down because the supply of people has gone way up. The quality of life is equalizing across the world and this is how. Those who were higher have to go down, those who were lower will go up.
cmurf 9y ago
By all objective measures, free trade has helped more than it has hurt. And yes, that's poor consolation for the disproportionate injury for the minority: not least of which are those in the U.S. who were unable or unwilling to adapt to the ensuing market forces, but perhaps the proliferation of worker exploitation and slavery [1] Those disproportionately benefiting, are those invested in the stock market, and work as top tier management of those companies. As defacto owners and operators, their company gets cheaper labor without honoring the labor rights of the home country, and have become wealthier because of this. Ironically, perhaps, the home country benefits from this as well via tax collection. The idea that that reverting to prior trade paradigms will be more fair is just stupid. Regression will be worse because it will deprive so many more people of what wealth they do have. It would destabilizing economically, and politically. Bilateral trade is as dead long term as petroleum. A silly president, who transparently favors bilateral trade either because he lacks the mental acuity to understand multilateral trade, or he's malevolent and wants to take advantage of others without being held accountable (his long standing business m.o. is split between the two), should have no say. And in practice the senate, American business, foreign leaders and businesses, nod and smile just so he doesn't poop his diaper again. Not because bilateral trade has a realistic chance. Instead of taking an unserious person's advice, we need to double down on mutilateral trade combined with strong competition, anti-fraud, and ethics. And a lot of rational constructive arguing. The more who benefit, the wealthier and safer we all are. I win you lose is Trump's idea of winning strategy, and everyone knows it. His followers love the bully mentality, they think it works, and his detractors see it for what it is: shitty behavior you expect from shitty people best avoided as much as possible. [1] A Crime So Monstrous: Face-to-Face with Modern-Day Slavery Ben Skinner

baxtr 9y ago

What’s your hypothesis that this is not happening elsewhere then? Let’s say in Germany. Free trade there as well...

galieos_ghost 9y ago
Germany has been called out many times for boosting trade by manipulating the Euro. They also have stronger unions which plays a roll. They also don't have millions of illegal immigrants with no federal labor protection driving wages down internally. https://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2017/05/26/trump-right-about-germany-trade-000445 https://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2017/05/26/trump-right...
- anarazel 9y ago
  > They also don't have millions of illegal immigrants with no federal labor protection driving wages down internally. Oh, bs. There's plenty plenty access to cheap labor (intra EU migration, external immigration, asylees with work permits). The minimum wage is low enough to not matter much in most cases.
  - UncleEntity 9y ago
    I could go out right now and fill up a pickup truck with people willing to do a hard days work for less than minimum wage by driving a couple miles to the Home Depot where they hang out all day hoping for work. If I spoke Spanish well enough I could probably get some fairly skilled workers too who will work for a lot less than "standard wage".
    - anarazel 9y ago
      So? That's not a US only problem. Nor is it particularly related to illegal immigration. In a lot of areas of Germany you could do similar, except with a bit less uniformity about which language skill are needed.
- walshemj 9y ago
  well the workers in Germany don't seem to be getting much of the reward do they?

jacquesm 9y ago

> As long as america continue to allow free trade our wealth and jobs will flow out of the country as countries seek cheaper labor and sell it right back to America with no restrictions. What an incredible nonsense. America has been pushing free trade all over the globe to be able to sell American products into other markets. They're not 'allowing' free trade, they have been pushing it for all it's worth and then some.

mc32 9y ago
And on balance we experience trade deficits. It's nice to have a free trade environment when it's reciprocal, but what has happened is that economies like Japan and China can play loose with the definition of free trade than most, and we kind of just put up with it. Few presidents and congress are willing to push the issue hard. Maybe Trump will finally call their bluff and impose sanctions.
- jlmorton 9y ago
  > And on balance we experience trade deficits. Why are trade deficits necessarily bad? The trade deficit represents the spread between savings and investment. If net foreign investment in America is very high, then there will be a trade deficit. This is an accounting identity. Household debt as a percentage of GDP has been declining in the US for the past decade. This leads one to believe that the trade deficit currently represents high foreign investment in the US.
- jacquesm 9y ago
  America has never had a 'reciprocal' free trade agreement, it has used the banner of free trade to engage in low level asymmetric trade wars. The stupid mistake they made was to ship their production capability to China, Japan got where they are under their own power, though the degree to which the Japanese bought Japanese products (mainly because of quality) meant that American products with a Japanese equivalent never stood much of a chance of being adopted in Japan. Free trade is based on merit (quality) and production capability, America has made some costly mistakes with both. Sanctions will hit the American consumer harder than the exporters.

endorphone 9y ago

Comments such as yours -- parroting Donald Trump like talking points -- are remarkable when you consider that the US has the second highest purchase power in the world. The US really has no incentive to allow this to happen Except that it has opened trade for US companies, and the reported numbers are often laughably misleading. Apple, for instance, nets almost all of the profits from an iPhone, yet in the trade balance an iPhone magically counts as a $1000 deficit with China. Further, it yields cheaper goods for Americans, and more efficiency. The US was literally built on free trade, and sits right near the top because of it, so to read these nonsensical "but what if" arguments borders on parody. It is just a profound ignorance of history and even the most rudimentary of economics. It is one of those amazing things where people really, really don't understand what they have until they lose it.

galieos_ghost 9y ago
Good for apple, good for the Chinese people working those jobs, bad for American citizens who would have been working those jobs. What is so wrong about using our leverage as the world's largest economy to protect the interests of our citizen's, just like China does?
- craftyguy 9y ago
  So basically, "China is doing it, so why can't we"? They also heavily repress their citizens and are notorious for human rights violations.
  - galieos_ghost 9y ago
    Yes? Why does the US have to fight in the global economy with one armed tied behind our back? And how are trade policy and China's human rights abuses in any way related?
    - craftyguy 9y ago
      My point is that just because one country is doing it doesn't mean that it's the right thing to do. Isolationism, and the concept of 'us vs. them' at a global level needs to die. Humans are a global species, and the longer it takes us to realize that the worse off we will be at trying to solve global problems, like economics.

jlmorton 9y ago

> As long as america continue to allow free trade our wealth and jobs will flow out of the country as countries seek cheaper labor and sell it right back to America with no restrictions. Settings aside the fact that the US currently enjoys very low unemployment, with a steady rate of job creation that is now the longest jobs expansion in recorded US history, why do you believe other countries are willing to manufacture things and give them away to Americans for free? Dollars are only valuable as a medium of exchange for American goods and services. Chinese companies will export goods and services to America because there is a demand for US dollars to purchase American goods and services, which are generated by labor and sold for a profit. The idea that wealth and jobs could flow out of the country as a result of trade - whether free trade, or otherwise - is literally impossible.

galieos_ghost 9y ago
Workforce participation remains low, wages are stagnant, buying power accounting for inflation is much lower than it was in decades past, all while corporate profits are at record highs. The promise that outsourcing didn't matter because goods would be cheaper was a lie, Corporations are instead enjoying record profits on the difference in labor costs. You can keep spouting the same talking points that economists and politicians have for years but there's a reason people like Trump and Bernie Sanders were able to have so much success, people are hurting. The phrase "Don't piss on my shoe and tell me it's raining" comes to mind. The only reason people would vote for anti-establishment politicians is because the current establishment isn't doing it's job. If things were great someone like Trump would have never stood a chance.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

narrator 9y ago

The weird thing about your argument is if you take off the lense of national boundaries the argument gains an extra dimension and becomes more complex. For example, I recently heard from a friend with family in China that Americans who go to China can make $50 an hour private English tutoring rich Chinese kids. How can wages be rising so much in China and they are still wildly undercutting us? The other weird thing is Americans who move to low cost south east Asia locations and run dropship ecommerce stores that make $2000 a month and live like they were making 10 times that in the bay area. The friend of mine who makes his living expenses for two years in Argentina in two months doing webdev. The bottom line is someting is wrong with prices for things in America. Prices for education, price for health care, prices for rent. Everything is so expensive that people can't live on low wages and be content. When they just change their location all the prices wildly change relative to each other and it all makes sense. I don't have an easy answer, but some unusual economic phenomenon is going on that transcends national politics and it is important for a individual who can operate internationally to take note. of it.

yusuke10 9y ago
> For example, I recently heard from a friend with family in China that Americans who go to China can make $50 an hour private English tutoring rich Chinese kids. How can wages be rising so much in China and they are still wildly undercutting us? China is a country of HUGE income inequalities. You have a few people that make millions and you have few hundred million people make $500/year. The middle class for them makes only $800/month. Money all flows to the top to the government/state firms, and much eventually flows out to Canada/Australia/US. > The other weird thing is Americans who move to low cost south east Asia locations and run dropship ecommerce stores that make $2000 a month and live like they were making 10 times that in the bay area. Living abroad is good for young singles, bad for anyone else. There's bad weather, dirty food, dirty water, food poisoning, no access to good healthcare, lots of noise and pollution. Not to mention if you're an entrepreneur, you are not putting down a root, not making network connections you need for sales, not going to meetup events and learning new technologies, etc.
lotsofpulp 9y ago
It’s not an unusual phenomenon. It’s just the market at work, changing the prices due to changes in supply and demand. The price of people (aka their wage) goes down because the supply of people has gone way up. The quality of life is equalizing across the world and this is how. Those who were higher have to go down, those who were lower will go up.

cmurf 9y ago

By all objective measures, free trade has helped more than it has hurt. And yes, that's poor consolation for the disproportionate injury for the minority: not least of which are those in the U.S. who were unable or unwilling to adapt to the ensuing market forces, but perhaps the proliferation of worker exploitation and slavery [1] Those disproportionately benefiting, are those invested in the stock market, and work as top tier management of those companies. As defacto owners and operators, their company gets cheaper labor without honoring the labor rights of the home country, and have become wealthier because of this. Ironically, perhaps, the home country benefits from this as well via tax collection. The idea that that reverting to prior trade paradigms will be more fair is just stupid. Regression will be worse because it will deprive so many more people of what wealth they do have. It would destabilizing economically, and politically. Bilateral trade is as dead long term as petroleum. A silly president, who transparently favors bilateral trade either because he lacks the mental acuity to understand multilateral trade, or he's malevolent and wants to take advantage of others without being held accountable (his long standing business m.o. is split between the two), should have no say. And in practice the senate, American business, foreign leaders and businesses, nod and smile just so he doesn't poop his diaper again. Not because bilateral trade has a realistic chance. Instead of taking an unserious person's advice, we need to double down on mutilateral trade combined with strong competition, anti-fraud, and ethics. And a lot of rational constructive arguing. The more who benefit, the wealthier and safer we all are. I win you lose is Trump's idea of winning strategy, and everyone knows it. His followers love the bully mentality, they think it works, and his detractors see it for what it is: shitty behavior you expect from shitty people best avoided as much as possible. [1] A Crime So Monstrous: Face-to-Face with Modern-Day Slavery Ben Skinner