4 ms·

The whole job center/activation system is a Kafkaesque nightmare of demotivation and denigration, according to people who've been through it. Instead of making

The whole job center/activation system is a Kafkaesque nightmare of demotivation and denigration, according to people who've been through it. Instead of making the stick bigger and more scary, why don't we focus on making the carrot tastier instead? Having a job is not a goal in itself, having a decent life is. A job is simply a tool to that end (and not the only one).

arghwhat 9y ago
Ah, but that is exactly my point: You can lead a decent albeit depressed life on unemployment support. What's your motivation to improve, especially considering that you are in a position where motivation comes about as often as pigs fly? I don't think there is much of a way to make the goal "nicer" (we can't demand that the jobs get better, and there is already significant benefit: better living standard, better mental health), so the only solution I can think of is to ensure that the hell you're in isn't comfortable enough that you just might end up staying. Yes, having a decent life is the goal, but in Denmark, the only practical means to that end in this country is through financial income (I'm ignoring the option of already being filthy rich). If you wish to live without finances, you would have to find a country where that is possible—even full self-sufficiency is not free in Denmark. Likewise, avoiding a job, and thereby consuming the fruits of our taxes without contributing, is frowned upon.
- KozmoNau7 9y ago
  You don't motivate people by making their already shitty situation even shittier. That just drives them even further into depression and hopelessness. What we should be doing is giving them more help, better educational options, activation courses that actually benefit them, instead of wasting their time. Offer them actual training for another your of job, if the one they used have isn't viable anymore. And drop the stupid requirements to send so and so many applications every week, which is just pointless busywork. Make a positive change, rather than a negative one. I say let the couple hundred or so deliberately workshy persons be. You're never going to convince them to work, and if you force them, they'll do a shitty no-effort job of it, probably reducing other people's productivity in the process. Just let them be, let them be artists or whatever. It's the least costly option.
  - arghwhat 9y ago
    There are plenty of educational options. Most of the educational system is free, you get financial support while using it, and some paid vocational courses are free to the unemployed. But it entirely misses the point: Those stuck are too depressed to help themselves. Depression is very difficult to work with. Furthermore, the stand-by situation of being stuck in unemployment is just as good as a low-end job. In other words, nothing about the situation provides incentive to change it, especially not considering that those there have no motivation to help themselves. The workshy is an entirely different case. Those can't be helped as long as the safety net is in place. They would probably help cure themselves if the safety net wasn't there, but removing it would harm others.
    - KozmoNau7 9y ago
      >Those stuck are too depressed to help themselves. Depression is very difficult to work with. And that is exactly why we need to help them, instead of just beating them with a bigger stick by making their situations even more hopeless. >The workshy is an entirely different case. Those can't be helped as long as the safety net is in place. "Helped", as if not enjoying having to work is some kind of illness or disability. It's perfectly natural, some people just don't enjoy work or being bossed around, they have other impulses instead. Why should they not be entitled to a comfortable life, simply because they don't prioritize work? Work is universally shit and a massive burden on one's private life and spare time. Those claiming to enjoy their work are simply deluding themselves (or they're basic simpletons). I know, because I've been there myself until I realized what time-wasting grind it is. Since then I have only given exactly what's needed, there is no incentive to go above and beyond , it simply isn't valued anymore. The scales have tipped way too far, and these days loyalty only goes one way, the wrong way. Everyone would be happier if we all worked a bit less.

arghwhat 9y ago

Ah, but that is exactly my point: You can lead a decent albeit depressed life on unemployment support. What's your motivation to improve, especially considering that you are in a position where motivation comes about as often as pigs fly? I don't think there is much of a way to make the goal "nicer" (we can't demand that the jobs get better, and there is already significant benefit: better living standard, better mental health), so the only solution I can think of is to ensure that the hell you're in isn't comfortable enough that you just might end up staying. Yes, having a decent life is the goal, but in Denmark, the only practical means to that end in this country is through financial income (I'm ignoring the option of already being filthy rich). If you wish to live without finances, you would have to find a country where that is possible—even full self-sufficiency is not free in Denmark. Likewise, avoiding a job, and thereby consuming the fruits of our taxes without contributing, is frowned upon.

KozmoNau7 9y ago
You don't motivate people by making their already shitty situation even shittier. That just drives them even further into depression and hopelessness. What we should be doing is giving them more help, better educational options, activation courses that actually benefit them, instead of wasting their time. Offer them actual training for another your of job, if the one they used have isn't viable anymore. And drop the stupid requirements to send so and so many applications every week, which is just pointless busywork. Make a positive change, rather than a negative one. I say let the couple hundred or so deliberately workshy persons be. You're never going to convince them to work, and if you force them, they'll do a shitty no-effort job of it, probably reducing other people's productivity in the process. Just let them be, let them be artists or whatever. It's the least costly option.
- arghwhat 9y ago
  There are plenty of educational options. Most of the educational system is free, you get financial support while using it, and some paid vocational courses are free to the unemployed. But it entirely misses the point: Those stuck are too depressed to help themselves. Depression is very difficult to work with. Furthermore, the stand-by situation of being stuck in unemployment is just as good as a low-end job. In other words, nothing about the situation provides incentive to change it, especially not considering that those there have no motivation to help themselves. The workshy is an entirely different case. Those can't be helped as long as the safety net is in place. They would probably help cure themselves if the safety net wasn't there, but removing it would harm others.
  - KozmoNau7 9y ago
    >Those stuck are too depressed to help themselves. Depression is very difficult to work with. And that is exactly why we need to help them, instead of just beating them with a bigger stick by making their situations even more hopeless. >The workshy is an entirely different case. Those can't be helped as long as the safety net is in place. "Helped", as if not enjoying having to work is some kind of illness or disability. It's perfectly natural, some people just don't enjoy work or being bossed around, they have other impulses instead. Why should they not be entitled to a comfortable life, simply because they don't prioritize work? Work is universally shit and a massive burden on one's private life and spare time. Those claiming to enjoy their work are simply deluding themselves (or they're basic simpletons). I know, because I've been there myself until I realized what time-wasting grind it is. Since then I have only given exactly what's needed, there is no incentive to go above and beyond , it simply isn't valued anymore. The scales have tipped way too far, and these days loyalty only goes one way, the wrong way. Everyone would be happier if we all worked a bit less.