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So don't store data in iCloud? It's perfectly possible to perform your own encryption and hold the private key yourself.

by tcd 9y ago

nixpulvis 9y ago
But they won't...
techrede 9y ago
Sure, many users in China can use other services, but it seems to be a no win situation for most people. Unless you’re technically sophisticated, you’re unlikely to pursue alternatives which provide a greater degree of security and require a bit of technical know how. At best you can say that Chinese users will likely be no worse off using iCloud than they would using any other China-based service. Unfortunately that is no consolation for anyone who might have sensitive data.
- pmlnr 9y ago
  > Unless you’re technically sophisticated, you’re unlikely to pursue alternatives which provide a greater degree of security and require a bit of technical know how. I'm completely pro-privacy, but I need to ask: why would ordinary people's ordinary data need better security? Even if iCloud might be decrypted by the government. If it's data like bills, government issued photos of ID cards, family photos, it will most likely won't matter at all and the security is good enough, just like anything available. Once you do have a reason to encrypt something, learning GPG, LUKS, etc. is not that hard or that technical.
  - blfr 9y ago
    LUKS, maybe. Although it lacks deniability. GPG, however, has proven to be virtually impossible to properly use and almost no one does, even in the hacker crowd.
  - saagarjha 9y ago
    Almost everyone does something that can be construed as being illegal. By allowing unfettered access to private information, this makes it much easier for laws to be selectively enforced in ways that benefit the government.
    - techrede 9y ago
      > Almost everyone does something that can be construed as being illegal. By allowing unfettered access to private information, this makes it much easier for laws to be selectively enforced in ways that benefit the government. Exactly. It could be something as simple as guilt by association. Even though you might not have done anything illegal yourself, you may have the contact information of someone who is on a watchlist or has been convicted of a crime. For example, China is looking into developing a social credit rating system, any association an individual has to persons who the government consider less reputable could have real impacts on their credit rating.
- abalone 9y ago
  > At best you can say that Chinese users will likely be no worse off using iCloud You can say better than that. iCloud is more secure than your average service (especially in China). It end to end encrypts the most sensitive data (keychain) for example, and iMessage has managed to stay alive so far.
  - techrede 9y ago
    Yes, perhaps that's true but it doesn't mean that Apple is completely in the clear on this issue. A much more detailed account of iCloud security can be found on this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16449326 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16449326
    - abalone 9y ago
      Nobody said they were clear of anything, just more secure than your average China-based service. (I have the top comment on that thread btw.) I should also add that locked notes in iOS are end-to-end encrypted. Those are pretty easy to use for folks who are not "technically sophisticated"; you just unlock them with your face/fingerprint. When you add that to secure keychain storage, iMessage (broadest end-to-end encrypted messaging system permitted in China), secure Siri data (imagine what a government could monitor if they owned the Alexa cloud)... Apple offers a significantly more secure service that is still easy to use by the general public.
mtgx 9y ago
As usual with all privacy issues, most people aren't aware of what's happening behind the scenes, and companies usually don't have any incentive to be transparent about it. It would be nice if Apple gave all of its Chinese iPhone users a nice big prompt that told them their iCloud/iMessage backups can be accessed by the Chinese government from that point forward, and maybe even tell them how they can disable it in the settings if they want to. It's the least Apple could do.
- echevil 9y ago
  Well my iCloud account in China did receive a long email from Apple before this happens, saying that they will move their iCloud servers to China, and what can be done if you do not want your data to be moved. I think they've done enough.

So don't store data in iCloud? It's perfectly possible to perform your own encryption and hold the private key yourself.

by tcd 9y ago

So don't store data in iCloud? It's perfectly possible to perform your own encryption and hold the private key yourself.

nixpulvis 9y ago

But they won't...

techrede 9y ago

Sure, many users in China can use other services, but it seems to be a no win situation for most people. Unless you’re technically sophisticated, you’re unlikely to pursue alternatives which provide a greater degree of security and require a bit of technical know how. At best you can say that Chinese users will likely be no worse off using iCloud than they would using any other China-based service. Unfortunately that is no consolation for anyone who might have sensitive data.

pmlnr 9y ago
> Unless you’re technically sophisticated, you’re unlikely to pursue alternatives which provide a greater degree of security and require a bit of technical know how. I'm completely pro-privacy, but I need to ask: why would ordinary people's ordinary data need better security? Even if iCloud might be decrypted by the government. If it's data like bills, government issued photos of ID cards, family photos, it will most likely won't matter at all and the security is good enough, just like anything available. Once you do have a reason to encrypt something, learning GPG, LUKS, etc. is not that hard or that technical.
- blfr 9y ago
  LUKS, maybe. Although it lacks deniability. GPG, however, has proven to be virtually impossible to properly use and almost no one does, even in the hacker crowd.
- saagarjha 9y ago
  Almost everyone does something that can be construed as being illegal. By allowing unfettered access to private information, this makes it much easier for laws to be selectively enforced in ways that benefit the government.
  - techrede 9y ago
    > Almost everyone does something that can be construed as being illegal. By allowing unfettered access to private information, this makes it much easier for laws to be selectively enforced in ways that benefit the government. Exactly. It could be something as simple as guilt by association. Even though you might not have done anything illegal yourself, you may have the contact information of someone who is on a watchlist or has been convicted of a crime. For example, China is looking into developing a social credit rating system, any association an individual has to persons who the government consider less reputable could have real impacts on their credit rating.
abalone 9y ago
> At best you can say that Chinese users will likely be no worse off using iCloud You can say better than that. iCloud is more secure than your average service (especially in China). It end to end encrypts the most sensitive data (keychain) for example, and iMessage has managed to stay alive so far.
- techrede 9y ago
  Yes, perhaps that's true but it doesn't mean that Apple is completely in the clear on this issue. A much more detailed account of iCloud security can be found on this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16449326 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16449326
  - abalone 9y ago
    Nobody said they were clear of anything, just more secure than your average China-based service. (I have the top comment on that thread btw.) I should also add that locked notes in iOS are end-to-end encrypted. Those are pretty easy to use for folks who are not "technically sophisticated"; you just unlock them with your face/fingerprint. When you add that to secure keychain storage, iMessage (broadest end-to-end encrypted messaging system permitted in China), secure Siri data (imagine what a government could monitor if they owned the Alexa cloud)... Apple offers a significantly more secure service that is still easy to use by the general public.

mtgx 9y ago

As usual with all privacy issues, most people aren't aware of what's happening behind the scenes, and companies usually don't have any incentive to be transparent about it. It would be nice if Apple gave all of its Chinese iPhone users a nice big prompt that told them their iCloud/iMessage backups can be accessed by the Chinese government from that point forward, and maybe even tell them how they can disable it in the settings if they want to. It's the least Apple could do.

echevil 9y ago
Well my iCloud account in China did receive a long email from Apple before this happens, saying that they will move their iCloud servers to China, and what can be done if you do not want your data to be moved. I think they've done enough.