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> Too little difference between working wage and welfare I’ve been on welfare in France for a few months to focus on a project. I’ve seen from the inside how t

> Too little difference between working wage and welfare I’ve been on welfare in France for a few months to focus on a project. I’ve seen from the inside how the sytem disincentive attempt at working or learning. I’ll list some reason why. - You cannot get the money if you have a job or are enrolled in a formation which encourage doing nothing - Money is not huge if you have a rent, but it also come with reduction on phone, electricity, ... bills and transportation - If you work, for every euro earned it will be substracted on what you gain during the next trimester - There is almost no checking done. I didn’t have to justify my situation or choices to the social worker - There is no nationality or language requirement which encourage (illegal) immigration. I’ve seen people angry against social workers because... the form was not in English - There is long delay (in weeks or months) for everything so you want to avoid changing your situation too often All in all this is not a way to reintegrate to society (by working) if you have a problem entering it or due to a lay off. It is a separate way of living with people specializing in it, a large part having no intention to work whatsoever. And I speak here about honest people, because I’ve talk to people who not only are on welfare but are working on the side without declaring it.

Mediterraneo10 9y ago
> All in all this is not a way to reintegrate to society (by working) if you have a problem entering it or due to a lay off. It is a separate way of living with people specializing in it, a large part having no intention to work whatsoever. On the other hand, in the Nordic countries work is thankfully not the only way to be part of society, because there are so many subsidized community centres and free or very low-cost activities that even people on the dole can attend. Even if some portion of unemployed people will just laze or booze, there is always somewhere fun and wholesome for the others to spend their time even in smaller towns. That is why I think basic income could work out well in the Nordic countries, but would be hard to implement in the USA where most of the country is generally against such intense subsidizing of locals arts, culture, libraries (even hackerspaces in some), etc. There people might get enough money to survive, but where would they go out? Who would they talk to? You imagine that people would just spend so much of their time online instead of having much of a local community life, and that might be unhealthy.
- titanix2 9y ago
  You are totally right about the desocialization. When having such a life, you have a lot of time but it is not aligned with the free time of most people. So you have no real choice: you either hang alone or other people on welfare. Also, the kind of cultural activities that are subsidized is not the ones that people on welfare attend. When you have the cultural background to know why going to the library is useful or important, you likely not end being on welfare. Similarly, if you lend there because you have no skills, the free time you have that could be used for self learning will not by used as such. So I see the whole system as a kind of trap, once you lend there it is game over because you’re basically provided money to shut up but have no real and effective support to improve your situation.
  - Mediterraneo10 9y ago
    > Also, the kind of cultural activities that are subsidized is not the ones that people on welfare attend. You would be surprised. I have met loads of people who frequent the Nordic arts scene who resorted to welfare after their local industry declined, or who are even the "professionally unemployed". Even welfare recipients can be very intellectual or cultured, and what holds them back from employment is something else. In any event, the library or high cultural spaces are not the sole community centres I refer to; in smaller communities you’ll find things like subsidized dances and hobby groups that will attract even the lowest educated and least ambitious members of a community. I can also speak from personal experience: in my student days as a foreign student in a Nordic country, I spent a time worse than on the dole: I was outright homeless and virtually penniless for several months. I remember vividly how much that time sucked because it was a constant struggle to find a place to sleep or get a decent meal. And yet the whole time I was attending concerts, I read a huge amount from the excellent public libraries (much better than in my own country), and my command of the local language and much else improved thanks to the opportunity to freely participate in certain community groups dedicated to a common interest. I cannot imagine getting the same opportunities in the USA, as I mentioned.

Mediterraneo10 9y ago

> All in all this is not a way to reintegrate to society (by working) if you have a problem entering it or due to a lay off. It is a separate way of living with people specializing in it, a large part having no intention to work whatsoever. On the other hand, in the Nordic countries work is thankfully not the only way to be part of society, because there are so many subsidized community centres and free or very low-cost activities that even people on the dole can attend. Even if some portion of unemployed people will just laze or booze, there is always somewhere fun and wholesome for the others to spend their time even in smaller towns. That is why I think basic income could work out well in the Nordic countries, but would be hard to implement in the USA where most of the country is generally against such intense subsidizing of locals arts, culture, libraries (even hackerspaces in some), etc. There people might get enough money to survive, but where would they go out? Who would they talk to? You imagine that people would just spend so much of their time online instead of having much of a local community life, and that might be unhealthy.

titanix2 9y ago
You are totally right about the desocialization. When having such a life, you have a lot of time but it is not aligned with the free time of most people. So you have no real choice: you either hang alone or other people on welfare. Also, the kind of cultural activities that are subsidized is not the ones that people on welfare attend. When you have the cultural background to know why going to the library is useful or important, you likely not end being on welfare. Similarly, if you lend there because you have no skills, the free time you have that could be used for self learning will not by used as such. So I see the whole system as a kind of trap, once you lend there it is game over because you’re basically provided money to shut up but have no real and effective support to improve your situation.
- Mediterraneo10 9y ago
  > Also, the kind of cultural activities that are subsidized is not the ones that people on welfare attend. You would be surprised. I have met loads of people who frequent the Nordic arts scene who resorted to welfare after their local industry declined, or who are even the "professionally unemployed". Even welfare recipients can be very intellectual or cultured, and what holds them back from employment is something else. In any event, the library or high cultural spaces are not the sole community centres I refer to; in smaller communities you’ll find things like subsidized dances and hobby groups that will attract even the lowest educated and least ambitious members of a community. I can also speak from personal experience: in my student days as a foreign student in a Nordic country, I spent a time worse than on the dole: I was outright homeless and virtually penniless for several months. I remember vividly how much that time sucked because it was a constant struggle to find a place to sleep or get a decent meal. And yet the whole time I was attending concerts, I read a huge amount from the excellent public libraries (much better than in my own country), and my command of the local language and much else improved thanks to the opportunity to freely participate in certain community groups dedicated to a common interest. I cannot imagine getting the same opportunities in the USA, as I mentioned.