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At the same time, being from Denmark, I also think we have a strong tendency for never being satisfied. I do have a negative mindset against I welfare system a

At the same time, being from Denmark, I also think we have a strong tendency for never being satisfied. I do have a negative mindset against I welfare system and its lack of work incentive, though. I feel like it should be handled differently, such as through not giving you money, but rather feeding you directly. A system that ensures health and survival, nothing more. I still remember the voice of some people being interviewed when some welfare rates fell: "I have to sell my car now!", "Why does my living standard have to be reduced just because I don't have a job?", "I'm not going to accept a job at Netto, I'm too well educated for that"... (For outsiders not understanding the "sell my car thing": Denmark is very bicycle oriented, and have very good public transportation. Cars are only a necessity if you live in the middle of nowhere.)

Alex3917 9y ago
> I do have a negative mindset against I welfare system and its lack of work incentive, though. At least in the US people born into wealthier families make way more money than average, so there isn't anything inherently demotivating about welfare.
- arghwhat 9y ago
  Being well is motivating, but being in the welfare safety net is not. It is stable, unhelpful, and those there are commonly depressed. They get stuck for years like that, and some don't make it out.
KozmoNau7 9y ago
I do have a negative mindset against I welfare system and its lack of work incentive, though. I feel like it should be handled differently, such as through not giving you money, but rather feeding you directly. A system that ensures health and survival, nothing more. Why shouldn't unemployed people be allowed to live a comfortable life, not just the bare minimum of subsistence?
- arghwhat 9y ago
  The primary reason is that there needs to be a strong incentive to get back to work. I know quite a few that have been on the unemployment safety net for years (which appears to be quite a normal duration), and while it seemed to care for them very well, a growing depression appears to be standard once you end up there, which kills motivation to get out. I would assume that this is due to one likely already being very vulnerable and at least halfway depressed when unemployment hits you. I don't think providing a stable and independent, but unhealthy environment helps those people. We have tried to ensure progress by forcing people to go to a job center every day, but if they're not motivated for a job, they won't get any. It becomes a chore that just contributes to a pointless living. The secondary reason is that it is expensive, and paid by the employed. Getting people employed fast means more money to support when there is need.
  - KozmoNau7 9y ago
    The whole job center/activation system is a Kafkaesque nightmare of demotivation and denigration, according to people who've been through it. Instead of making the stick bigger and more scary, why don't we focus on making the carrot tastier instead? Having a job is not a goal in itself, having a decent life is. A job is simply a tool to that end (and not the only one).
    - arghwhat 9y ago
      Ah, but that is exactly my point: You can lead a decent albeit depressed life on unemployment support. What's your motivation to improve, especially considering that you are in a position where motivation comes about as often as pigs fly? I don't think there is much of a way to make the goal "nicer" (we can't demand that the jobs get better, and there is already significant benefit: better living standard, better mental health), so the only solution I can think of is to ensure that the hell you're in isn't comfortable enough that you just might end up staying. Yes, having a decent life is the goal, but in Denmark, the only practical means to that end in this country is through financial income (I'm ignoring the option of already being filthy rich). If you wish to live without finances, you would have to find a country where that is possible—even full self-sufficiency is not free in Denmark. Likewise, avoiding a job, and thereby consuming the fruits of our taxes without contributing, is frowned upon.

Alex3917 9y ago

> I do have a negative mindset against I welfare system and its lack of work incentive, though. At least in the US people born into wealthier families make way more money than average, so there isn't anything inherently demotivating about welfare.

arghwhat 9y ago
Being well is motivating, but being in the welfare safety net is not. It is stable, unhelpful, and those there are commonly depressed. They get stuck for years like that, and some don't make it out.

KozmoNau7 9y ago

I do have a negative mindset against I welfare system and its lack of work incentive, though. I feel like it should be handled differently, such as through not giving you money, but rather feeding you directly. A system that ensures health and survival, nothing more. Why shouldn't unemployed people be allowed to live a comfortable life, not just the bare minimum of subsistence?

arghwhat 9y ago
The primary reason is that there needs to be a strong incentive to get back to work. I know quite a few that have been on the unemployment safety net for years (which appears to be quite a normal duration), and while it seemed to care for them very well, a growing depression appears to be standard once you end up there, which kills motivation to get out. I would assume that this is due to one likely already being very vulnerable and at least halfway depressed when unemployment hits you. I don't think providing a stable and independent, but unhealthy environment helps those people. We have tried to ensure progress by forcing people to go to a job center every day, but if they're not motivated for a job, they won't get any. It becomes a chore that just contributes to a pointless living. The secondary reason is that it is expensive, and paid by the employed. Getting people employed fast means more money to support when there is need.
- KozmoNau7 9y ago
  The whole job center/activation system is a Kafkaesque nightmare of demotivation and denigration, according to people who've been through it. Instead of making the stick bigger and more scary, why don't we focus on making the carrot tastier instead? Having a job is not a goal in itself, having a decent life is. A job is simply a tool to that end (and not the only one).
  - arghwhat 9y ago
    Ah, but that is exactly my point: You can lead a decent albeit depressed life on unemployment support. What's your motivation to improve, especially considering that you are in a position where motivation comes about as often as pigs fly? I don't think there is much of a way to make the goal "nicer" (we can't demand that the jobs get better, and there is already significant benefit: better living standard, better mental health), so the only solution I can think of is to ensure that the hell you're in isn't comfortable enough that you just might end up staying. Yes, having a decent life is the goal, but in Denmark, the only practical means to that end in this country is through financial income (I'm ignoring the option of already being filthy rich). If you wish to live without finances, you would have to find a country where that is possible—even full self-sufficiency is not free in Denmark. Likewise, avoiding a job, and thereby consuming the fruits of our taxes without contributing, is frowned upon.