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Being from Denmark, but living in the US now, I see the main problem with Denmark that a lot of people are complacent. While the system works now, I doubt it wi

Being from Denmark, but living in the US now, I see the main problem with Denmark that a lot of people are complacent. While the system works now, I doubt it will be positive in the long run. We are not hungry enough, and for too many people right now it isn't worth it to work (Too little difference between working wage and welfare). Again, this is just a few negative statements, there are lot of positive areas (Free hospitals and education comes to mind). If we could just be less complacent we would have a lot better future.

RobertoG 9y ago
You say that the main problem with Denmark is that people is complacent, but you don't explain why being complacent is a problem. Is it so bad that people have "complacent" lives when there is enough resources? Maybe, people should aspire to a life of heroic struggled nevermind the circumstances?
- PhilipA 9y ago
  Being complacent is 'perfect' from a state of mind - don't get me wrong, this is why we are happy. The issue is that people who are complacent are not as hungry, and we need a bit of the hunger and drive to continue to have the wealth that we have been used to.
  - RobertoG 9y ago
    It seems to me that wealth come from two sources: capital accumulation (I'm not talking about money here) and knowledge accumulation. How do you expect to lose those? If something, I would expect they increase and that allowing people to be even more 'complacent'.
arghwhat 9y ago
At the same time, being from Denmark, I also think we have a strong tendency for never being satisfied. I do have a negative mindset against I welfare system and its lack of work incentive, though. I feel like it should be handled differently, such as through not giving you money, but rather feeding you directly. A system that ensures health and survival, nothing more. I still remember the voice of some people being interviewed when some welfare rates fell: "I have to sell my car now!", "Why does my living standard have to be reduced just because I don't have a job?", "I'm not going to accept a job at Netto, I'm too well educated for that"... (For outsiders not understanding the "sell my car thing": Denmark is very bicycle oriented, and have very good public transportation. Cars are only a necessity if you live in the middle of nowhere.)
- Alex3917 9y ago
  > I do have a negative mindset against I welfare system and its lack of work incentive, though. At least in the US people born into wealthier families make way more money than average, so there isn't anything inherently demotivating about welfare.
  - arghwhat 9y ago
    Being well is motivating, but being in the welfare safety net is not. It is stable, unhelpful, and those there are commonly depressed. They get stuck for years like that, and some don't make it out.
- KozmoNau7 9y ago
  I do have a negative mindset against I welfare system and its lack of work incentive, though. I feel like it should be handled differently, such as through not giving you money, but rather feeding you directly. A system that ensures health and survival, nothing more. Why shouldn't unemployed people be allowed to live a comfortable life, not just the bare minimum of subsistence?
  - arghwhat 9y ago
    The primary reason is that there needs to be a strong incentive to get back to work. I know quite a few that have been on the unemployment safety net for years (which appears to be quite a normal duration), and while it seemed to care for them very well, a growing depression appears to be standard once you end up there, which kills motivation to get out. I would assume that this is due to one likely already being very vulnerable and at least halfway depressed when unemployment hits you. I don't think providing a stable and independent, but unhealthy environment helps those people. We have tried to ensure progress by forcing people to go to a job center every day, but if they're not motivated for a job, they won't get any. It becomes a chore that just contributes to a pointless living. The secondary reason is that it is expensive, and paid by the employed. Getting people employed fast means more money to support when there is need.
matt4077 9y ago
This idea that you need the threat of abject poverty to motivate people to greatness is not supported by any empirical evidence. Look no further than the US' most successful companies: Bill Gates, Sergey Brin & Larry Page, and all the other success stories start from positions of relative wealth, and almost absolute economic safety. Bill Gates came from rich parents, and all these founders attended elite universities before starting their companies (Harvard and Stanford, respectively). They had what can only be described as a robust safety net to fall back on if their endeavours failed.
nextos 9y ago
This article touched me deeply, as I can relate to all these issues. I love Denmark. I've lived there for almost a decade, and I hope to return in the future. I consider it my second home. Another big problem is that great welfare and superb salaries (further enhanced by SKAT's scheme for foreign researchers) attract the wrong type of people to research institutions. I met countless foreigners that act like Milena Penkowa [1] (she's Danish, though). They abuse the system, misuse funds and do nothing valuable. Except perpetuating their position. Me and my close peers hated this. I left to Oxbridge. Much worse quality of life, but a decent meritocracy. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milena_Penkowa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milena_Penkowa
jcims 9y ago
How is the pursuit of exceptional achievement perceived in Denmark? What do little Danes want to do when they grow up?
- KozmoNau7 9y ago
  We absolutely don't mind people who strive for greatness, as long as they remember to contribute back to society and don't run off to Switzerland or Monaco with all their money. We just don't like boastful overly prideful US-style "look at me!" self-aggrandizement and egotism. You did well, without exploiting other people or breaking the law? Good for you, and good for society when you give back! Just don't be a dick.
titanix2 9y ago
> Too little difference between working wage and welfare I’ve been on welfare in France for a few months to focus on a project. I’ve seen from the inside how the sytem disincentive attempt at working or learning. I’ll list some reason why. - You cannot get the money if you have a job or are enrolled in a formation which encourage doing nothing - Money is not huge if you have a rent, but it also come with reduction on phone, electricity, ... bills and transportation - If you work, for every euro earned it will be substracted on what you gain during the next trimester - There is almost no checking done. I didn’t have to justify my situation or choices to the social worker - There is no nationality or language requirement which encourage (illegal) immigration. I’ve seen people angry against social workers because... the form was not in English - There is long delay (in weeks or months) for everything so you want to avoid changing your situation too often All in all this is not a way to reintegrate to society (by working) if you have a problem entering it or due to a lay off. It is a separate way of living with people specializing in it, a large part having no intention to work whatsoever. And I speak here about honest people, because I’ve talk to people who not only are on welfare but are working on the side without declaring it.
- Mediterraneo10 9y ago
  > All in all this is not a way to reintegrate to society (by working) if you have a problem entering it or due to a lay off. It is a separate way of living with people specializing in it, a large part having no intention to work whatsoever. On the other hand, in the Nordic countries work is thankfully not the only way to be part of society, because there are so many subsidized community centres and free or very low-cost activities that even people on the dole can attend. Even if some portion of unemployed people will just laze or booze, there is always somewhere fun and wholesome for the others to spend their time even in smaller towns. That is why I think basic income could work out well in the Nordic countries, but would be hard to implement in the USA where most of the country is generally against such intense subsidizing of locals arts, culture, libraries (even hackerspaces in some), etc. There people might get enough money to survive, but where would they go out? Who would they talk to? You imagine that people would just spend so much of their time online instead of having much of a local community life, and that might be unhealthy.
KozmoNau7 9y ago
Why is the that the threat of abject poverty the only way to motivate poor/middle-class people, while pre-gifting tax cuts seems to be the only way to motivate rich people? for too many people right now it isn't worth it to work (Too little difference between working wage and welfare) That is complete nonsense, peddled by the current government and their think tank lapdogs (including CEPOS). They've only ever been able to find a few persons here and there who even barely fit their bogeyman of a deliberately workshy person, while the vast majority of unemployed people would love to have a job. CEPOS et al. also tend to include people with severely limited ability to work in their grouping of "lazy" workshy people.

RobertoG 9y ago

You say that the main problem with Denmark is that people is complacent, but you don't explain why being complacent is a problem. Is it so bad that people have "complacent" lives when there is enough resources? Maybe, people should aspire to a life of heroic struggled nevermind the circumstances?

PhilipA 9y ago
Being complacent is 'perfect' from a state of mind - don't get me wrong, this is why we are happy. The issue is that people who are complacent are not as hungry, and we need a bit of the hunger and drive to continue to have the wealth that we have been used to.
- RobertoG 9y ago
  It seems to me that wealth come from two sources: capital accumulation (I'm not talking about money here) and knowledge accumulation. How do you expect to lose those? If something, I would expect they increase and that allowing people to be even more 'complacent'.

arghwhat 9y ago

At the same time, being from Denmark, I also think we have a strong tendency for never being satisfied. I do have a negative mindset against I welfare system and its lack of work incentive, though. I feel like it should be handled differently, such as through not giving you money, but rather feeding you directly. A system that ensures health and survival, nothing more. I still remember the voice of some people being interviewed when some welfare rates fell: "I have to sell my car now!", "Why does my living standard have to be reduced just because I don't have a job?", "I'm not going to accept a job at Netto, I'm too well educated for that"... (For outsiders not understanding the "sell my car thing": Denmark is very bicycle oriented, and have very good public transportation. Cars are only a necessity if you live in the middle of nowhere.)

Alex3917 9y ago
> I do have a negative mindset against I welfare system and its lack of work incentive, though. At least in the US people born into wealthier families make way more money than average, so there isn't anything inherently demotivating about welfare.
- arghwhat 9y ago
  Being well is motivating, but being in the welfare safety net is not. It is stable, unhelpful, and those there are commonly depressed. They get stuck for years like that, and some don't make it out.
KozmoNau7 9y ago
I do have a negative mindset against I welfare system and its lack of work incentive, though. I feel like it should be handled differently, such as through not giving you money, but rather feeding you directly. A system that ensures health and survival, nothing more. Why shouldn't unemployed people be allowed to live a comfortable life, not just the bare minimum of subsistence?
- arghwhat 9y ago
  The primary reason is that there needs to be a strong incentive to get back to work. I know quite a few that have been on the unemployment safety net for years (which appears to be quite a normal duration), and while it seemed to care for them very well, a growing depression appears to be standard once you end up there, which kills motivation to get out. I would assume that this is due to one likely already being very vulnerable and at least halfway depressed when unemployment hits you. I don't think providing a stable and independent, but unhealthy environment helps those people. We have tried to ensure progress by forcing people to go to a job center every day, but if they're not motivated for a job, they won't get any. It becomes a chore that just contributes to a pointless living. The secondary reason is that it is expensive, and paid by the employed. Getting people employed fast means more money to support when there is need.

matt4077 9y ago

This idea that you need the threat of abject poverty to motivate people to greatness is not supported by any empirical evidence. Look no further than the US' most successful companies: Bill Gates, Sergey Brin & Larry Page, and all the other success stories start from positions of relative wealth, and almost absolute economic safety. Bill Gates came from rich parents, and all these founders attended elite universities before starting their companies (Harvard and Stanford, respectively). They had what can only be described as a robust safety net to fall back on if their endeavours failed.

nextos 9y ago

This article touched me deeply, as I can relate to all these issues. I love Denmark. I've lived there for almost a decade, and I hope to return in the future. I consider it my second home. Another big problem is that great welfare and superb salaries (further enhanced by SKAT's scheme for foreign researchers) attract the wrong type of people to research institutions. I met countless foreigners that act like Milena Penkowa [1] (she's Danish, though). They abuse the system, misuse funds and do nothing valuable. Except perpetuating their position. Me and my close peers hated this. I left to Oxbridge. Much worse quality of life, but a decent meritocracy. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milena_Penkowa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milena_Penkowa

jcims 9y ago

How is the pursuit of exceptional achievement perceived in Denmark? What do little Danes want to do when they grow up?

KozmoNau7 9y ago
We absolutely don't mind people who strive for greatness, as long as they remember to contribute back to society and don't run off to Switzerland or Monaco with all their money. We just don't like boastful overly prideful US-style "look at me!" self-aggrandizement and egotism. You did well, without exploiting other people or breaking the law? Good for you, and good for society when you give back! Just don't be a dick.

titanix2 9y ago

> Too little difference between working wage and welfare I’ve been on welfare in France for a few months to focus on a project. I’ve seen from the inside how the sytem disincentive attempt at working or learning. I’ll list some reason why. - You cannot get the money if you have a job or are enrolled in a formation which encourage doing nothing - Money is not huge if you have a rent, but it also come with reduction on phone, electricity, ... bills and transportation - If you work, for every euro earned it will be substracted on what you gain during the next trimester - There is almost no checking done. I didn’t have to justify my situation or choices to the social worker - There is no nationality or language requirement which encourage (illegal) immigration. I’ve seen people angry against social workers because... the form was not in English - There is long delay (in weeks or months) for everything so you want to avoid changing your situation too often All in all this is not a way to reintegrate to society (by working) if you have a problem entering it or due to a lay off. It is a separate way of living with people specializing in it, a large part having no intention to work whatsoever. And I speak here about honest people, because I’ve talk to people who not only are on welfare but are working on the side without declaring it.

Mediterraneo10 9y ago
> All in all this is not a way to reintegrate to society (by working) if you have a problem entering it or due to a lay off. It is a separate way of living with people specializing in it, a large part having no intention to work whatsoever. On the other hand, in the Nordic countries work is thankfully not the only way to be part of society, because there are so many subsidized community centres and free or very low-cost activities that even people on the dole can attend. Even if some portion of unemployed people will just laze or booze, there is always somewhere fun and wholesome for the others to spend their time even in smaller towns. That is why I think basic income could work out well in the Nordic countries, but would be hard to implement in the USA where most of the country is generally against such intense subsidizing of locals arts, culture, libraries (even hackerspaces in some), etc. There people might get enough money to survive, but where would they go out? Who would they talk to? You imagine that people would just spend so much of their time online instead of having much of a local community life, and that might be unhealthy.

KozmoNau7 9y ago

Why is the that the threat of abject poverty the only way to motivate poor/middle-class people, while pre-gifting tax cuts seems to be the only way to motivate rich people? for too many people right now it isn't worth it to work (Too little difference between working wage and welfare) That is complete nonsense, peddled by the current government and their think tank lapdogs (including CEPOS). They've only ever been able to find a few persons here and there who even barely fit their bogeyman of a deliberately workshy person, while the vast majority of unemployed people would love to have a job. CEPOS et al. also tend to include people with severely limited ability to work in their grouping of "lazy" workshy people.