11 ms·

I'll say it. This will fail. 1. Harley demographic is entrenched, hard to pivot. Most associate with wealthy boomers and 'lowlifes', or working class murica.

by nugi 9y ago

I'll say it. This will fail. 1. Harley demographic is entrenched, hard to pivot. Most associate with wealthy boomers and 'lowlifes', or working class murica. Not things as popular today. Other, better, performance ebikes exist, and outside this restrictive submarket, but are not thriving. And I will casually remind readers of Southparks opinion. That said, they do have diehard fans that would buy anything they made. 2. Motorcycles are all about freedom. Range issues, or even the idea of them, robs confidence. This will change, but gas is way more energy dense and on a bike it matters even more than cars. Going into the mountains is not when you want to wonder if your range will halve going up hills with gusto, or screwing it on for the corners. 3. Price perception. The electric will be awesome. Torque is so fun on bikes. But to harley riders, I think it will fell like a 'toy'. And for the price point, its gonna be a tough sell. 4. Tinkering. You do not buy a harley as an intelligent person without ever expecting to work on it. Hell, that is part of the classical appeal of them. There are more than a few explorations of life and motorcycle maintance in print. Maybe this is just my bias, but the connection with the machine is part of what makes motorcycling so intimate. I very much welcome being incorrect. I shopped for an ebike and bought another used sportbike instead.

dugditches 9y ago
To further point 1, Harley made the V-Rod in 2001.[1] Departure from their typically... lacking bikes(liquid cooling, engine designed in joint with Porsche). With drastically different styling. They had a niche but never really caught on. Harley also briefly had a Performance Bike company, Buell that they shuttered.[2] I'll disagree with your point 4. Even though they're still behind, modern Harleys aren't the stereotypical leaking/broken down rattling apart of the past. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buell_Motorcycle_Company https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buell_Motorcycle_Company https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harley-Davidson_VRSC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harley-Davidson_VRSC
- nugi 9y ago
  You are correct with reguards to #4, the evo engines and later were all decent I hear. My point partly stands as nobody seems to leave their bike stock, and mods will be limited. American sportbikes have always had problems, even without harleys heavy hand. The Buell story really is a sad and facinating one for anyone interested in business.
  - mcguire 9y ago
    It's hard to remove the muffler on an electric motor.
    - dotancohen 9y ago
      Use it against them! Market the bike as "the Harley that comes stock without a muffler".
  - Animats 9y ago
    nobody seems to leave their bike stock, and mods will be limited. Look at the electric bicycle crowd. Mods, mods, mods. Yes, you can get an electric bicycle to go above 50MPH, but you don't have the tires and brakes to stop the thing.
- city41 9y ago
  I'm a Buell fan and owned two Buells. Erik Buell really had to fight tooth and nail to do anything with Harley, and was saddled with using Sportster engines which are quite archaic. This led to bikes with a lot of character but no mass market appeal. Buell did release the 1125r near the end, which was finally a bike that could truly compete with other sport bikes, and used an engine made by Rotax. Sadly it was too little, too late, and the 1125r had reliability problems to boot. In short, Buell never stood a chance of being anything beyond a very small, niche brand.
mc32 9y ago
I'm hoping they, or someone succeeds, and I think the market will develop. In addition to carbon emissions reduction, the most immediate benefit is a godly reduction in noise pollution. In SF we have these bastards who love nothing more than to rev up their engines and make noise, on residential streets, at night. I so loathe that aspect of bikers.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- mechhrt 9y ago
  Sure you hate it but the riders/consumers love it and that's another reason that electric bikes will fail.
- jacobolus 9y ago
  From what I understand those loud motorcycles have illegally modified exhaust systems. I would love it if police would pull people over for their loud motorcycles, check that the system hadn't been tampered with, and if not seize them and revoke the rider's motorcycle license... probably not going to happen though.
  - mc32 9y ago
    I wish the supes would push some quality of life ordinances, kind of like the ones Mirakami passed for the panhandle to deal with the druggies on Haight, but most supes don't seem to care.
  - rconti 9y ago
    Harley owners groups even distribute guides as to which areas are 'unfriendly' towards them (eg, actually care about excessive noise). As a rider, I can't want until Harley crashes and burns. Ungodly loud and ungodly TERRIBLE sounding machines. I only wish I could afford a Ducati but at least a Duc with Termis sounds GOOD in addition to pissing everyone off. I don't know why anybody would want to ride what sounds like a flatulent cow. And their riders' need to go wide open throttle at low revs any time they see someone within earshot they think they might be able to 'impress' just murders any desire I have to ever ride one. I can't say for sure I won't find myself being drawn to a 'cruiser' style motorcycle at some point in life. But I can say for sure that I will never, ever want to associate myself with that particular brand.
curyous 9y ago
Times will change. Riding a motorbike with a petrol engine will become like riding a horse.
- elmar 9y ago
  people still enjoy riding horses, not for daily transport but for recreational journeys.
  - ikeyany 9y ago
    I believe that's the point.
- ninkendo 9y ago
  There's a bit of irony in your statement because people are attracted to motorcycles in some ways _because_ they're kinda like riding a horse.
elmar 9y ago
> This will fail. Longtime Harley rider here, what I love on my Harley, the vibration, the sound, the smell, this Harley as nothing of it, I would never buy it and probably the average Harley rider shares my opinion.
- js2 9y ago
  My dad owned a Harley so I totally get the appeal, especially the sound. But it's also the sound that annoys the crap out of the rest of us. Then again, I suppose annoying the crap out of the rest of us with the sound may be part of the appeal of it to certain Harley owners. (Entire comment tongue in cheek... mostly.) :-)
jdietrich 9y ago
Harley will probably fail with an EV. If Honda bring out an electric version of the Vision or the PCX, they'll sell boatloads of them. Electric scooters are near-ubiquitous in South-East Asia, particularly China. 30-50 miles of range is plenty for a little urban runabout. You don't need a lot of power to replace a 50cc or 125cc engine, so the battery is small enough to carry up to your apartment and it can charge reasonably quickly from a normal 13A outlet. Electric scooters are often replacing absolutely filthy two-stroke scooters, so they have a disproportionately positive impact on local air quality. Electric scooters have the potential to be the new Honda Cub - simple, economical transport for the masses.
js2 9y ago
But I don't think it's the existing demographic they are trying to sell this bike to. The whole point is that market is shrinking. Rather, they want to have something available to sell to the "next generation" of riders. For example, people who want an electric bike made by an American manufacturer.
- Nexxxeh 9y ago
  I've never really been attracted to motorcycles, and while I've seen Harleys and thought "that looks good", it's never made me want one. This one interests me. Unfortunately as I'd need a car anyway, I'm guessing this is going to be well outside my price range. Is there any info on pricing yet? I couldn't see it in TFA.
jsgo 9y ago
If price gets to a point that it is at parity with the typical bike, I'd probably jump. I don't own one and the only thing that really draws is less fuel consumption. Something that I just charge for trips to and from work? That'd be icing. Though for the points you listed and others, I expect the run of the mill that they're none for to continue for a while as well. But they have the possibility of owning two markets, so why not?
panarky 9y ago
> Harley demographic is entrenched They're not targeting existing customers, this is a growth story about attracting new, younger, urban/suburban customers.
- CodeWriter23 9y ago
  The “shut up and take my money” Ducati-riding demographic, to be specific.
marcinx27 9y ago
To sort of piggy back off of your point, I think Harley is headed for the rocks and it all comes down to number 1. Harley has such a concrete demographic and it's been exhausted. The problem is, by catering so hard to that demographic they are not able to get new riders. To make matters worse, things like electric motorcycles, discontinuing the Dyna / FXR line, and changing from an air cooled engine to a liquid cooled engine is also annoying their diehard demographic. The only demographic which seems to be growing (though, I'm extremely biased on this) is younger kids who are getting into customizing motorcycles. Not "Orange County Chopper" bikes, but buying old Harleys (or Triumphs or BSAs or Hondas for that matter) and making them into cool choppers or cafe racers or whatever. The problem is, this demographic doesn't give Harley any money. They don't want the Harley branded everything. They want old bikes that they can get cheap aftermarket or NOS parts for and they want to ride those.
- cptskippy 9y ago
  This is the reality for a lot of companies, they have built themselves around the baby boomers who are getting to old and dying off. They've all but ignored the younger generations and now must face the reality that soon no one will care about their brand and they'll wither and die just like their core demographic. Even if millennials suddenly thought Harley was cool, they wouldn't have the money to afford one.
brokenmachine 9y ago
> And I will casually remind readers of Southparks opinion. Which is? I'm out of the loop.

by nugi 9y ago

dugditches 9y ago

To further point 1, Harley made the V-Rod in 2001.[1] Departure from their typically... lacking bikes(liquid cooling, engine designed in joint with Porsche). With drastically different styling. They had a niche but never really caught on. Harley also briefly had a Performance Bike company, Buell that they shuttered.[2] I'll disagree with your point 4. Even though they're still behind, modern Harleys aren't the stereotypical leaking/broken down rattling apart of the past. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buell_Motorcycle_Company https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buell_Motorcycle_Company https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harley-Davidson_VRSC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harley-Davidson_VRSC

nugi 9y ago
You are correct with reguards to #4, the evo engines and later were all decent I hear. My point partly stands as nobody seems to leave their bike stock, and mods will be limited. American sportbikes have always had problems, even without harleys heavy hand. The Buell story really is a sad and facinating one for anyone interested in business.
- mcguire 9y ago
  It's hard to remove the muffler on an electric motor.
  - dotancohen 9y ago
    Use it against them! Market the bike as "the Harley that comes stock without a muffler".
- Animats 9y ago
  nobody seems to leave their bike stock, and mods will be limited. Look at the electric bicycle crowd. Mods, mods, mods. Yes, you can get an electric bicycle to go above 50MPH, but you don't have the tires and brakes to stop the thing.
city41 9y ago
I'm a Buell fan and owned two Buells. Erik Buell really had to fight tooth and nail to do anything with Harley, and was saddled with using Sportster engines which are quite archaic. This led to bikes with a lot of character but no mass market appeal. Buell did release the 1125r near the end, which was finally a bike that could truly compete with other sport bikes, and used an engine made by Rotax. Sadly it was too little, too late, and the 1125r had reliability problems to boot. In short, Buell never stood a chance of being anything beyond a very small, niche brand.

mc32 9y ago

I'm hoping they, or someone succeeds, and I think the market will develop. In addition to carbon emissions reduction, the most immediate benefit is a godly reduction in noise pollution. In SF we have these bastards who love nothing more than to rev up their engines and make noise, on residential streets, at night. I so loathe that aspect of bikers.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
mechhrt 9y ago
Sure you hate it but the riders/consumers love it and that's another reason that electric bikes will fail.
jacobolus 9y ago
From what I understand those loud motorcycles have illegally modified exhaust systems. I would love it if police would pull people over for their loud motorcycles, check that the system hadn't been tampered with, and if not seize them and revoke the rider's motorcycle license... probably not going to happen though.
- mc32 9y ago
  I wish the supes would push some quality of life ordinances, kind of like the ones Mirakami passed for the panhandle to deal with the druggies on Haight, but most supes don't seem to care.
- rconti 9y ago
  Harley owners groups even distribute guides as to which areas are 'unfriendly' towards them (eg, actually care about excessive noise). As a rider, I can't want until Harley crashes and burns. Ungodly loud and ungodly TERRIBLE sounding machines. I only wish I could afford a Ducati but at least a Duc with Termis sounds GOOD in addition to pissing everyone off. I don't know why anybody would want to ride what sounds like a flatulent cow. And their riders' need to go wide open throttle at low revs any time they see someone within earshot they think they might be able to 'impress' just murders any desire I have to ever ride one. I can't say for sure I won't find myself being drawn to a 'cruiser' style motorcycle at some point in life. But I can say for sure that I will never, ever want to associate myself with that particular brand.

curyous 9y ago

Times will change. Riding a motorbike with a petrol engine will become like riding a horse.

elmar 9y ago
people still enjoy riding horses, not for daily transport but for recreational journeys.
- ikeyany 9y ago
  I believe that's the point.
ninkendo 9y ago
There's a bit of irony in your statement because people are attracted to motorcycles in some ways _because_ they're kinda like riding a horse.

elmar 9y ago

> This will fail. Longtime Harley rider here, what I love on my Harley, the vibration, the sound, the smell, this Harley as nothing of it, I would never buy it and probably the average Harley rider shares my opinion.

js2 9y ago
My dad owned a Harley so I totally get the appeal, especially the sound. But it's also the sound that annoys the crap out of the rest of us. Then again, I suppose annoying the crap out of the rest of us with the sound may be part of the appeal of it to certain Harley owners. (Entire comment tongue in cheek... mostly.) :-)

jdietrich 9y ago

Harley will probably fail with an EV. If Honda bring out an electric version of the Vision or the PCX, they'll sell boatloads of them. Electric scooters are near-ubiquitous in South-East Asia, particularly China. 30-50 miles of range is plenty for a little urban runabout. You don't need a lot of power to replace a 50cc or 125cc engine, so the battery is small enough to carry up to your apartment and it can charge reasonably quickly from a normal 13A outlet. Electric scooters are often replacing absolutely filthy two-stroke scooters, so they have a disproportionately positive impact on local air quality. Electric scooters have the potential to be the new Honda Cub - simple, economical transport for the masses.

js2 9y ago

But I don't think it's the existing demographic they are trying to sell this bike to. The whole point is that market is shrinking. Rather, they want to have something available to sell to the "next generation" of riders. For example, people who want an electric bike made by an American manufacturer.

Nexxxeh 9y ago
I've never really been attracted to motorcycles, and while I've seen Harleys and thought "that looks good", it's never made me want one. This one interests me. Unfortunately as I'd need a car anyway, I'm guessing this is going to be well outside my price range. Is there any info on pricing yet? I couldn't see it in TFA.

jsgo 9y ago

If price gets to a point that it is at parity with the typical bike, I'd probably jump. I don't own one and the only thing that really draws is less fuel consumption. Something that I just charge for trips to and from work? That'd be icing. Though for the points you listed and others, I expect the run of the mill that they're none for to continue for a while as well. But they have the possibility of owning two markets, so why not?

panarky 9y ago

> Harley demographic is entrenched They're not targeting existing customers, this is a growth story about attracting new, younger, urban/suburban customers.

CodeWriter23 9y ago
The “shut up and take my money” Ducati-riding demographic, to be specific.

marcinx27 9y ago

To sort of piggy back off of your point, I think Harley is headed for the rocks and it all comes down to number 1. Harley has such a concrete demographic and it's been exhausted. The problem is, by catering so hard to that demographic they are not able to get new riders. To make matters worse, things like electric motorcycles, discontinuing the Dyna / FXR line, and changing from an air cooled engine to a liquid cooled engine is also annoying their diehard demographic. The only demographic which seems to be growing (though, I'm extremely biased on this) is younger kids who are getting into customizing motorcycles. Not "Orange County Chopper" bikes, but buying old Harleys (or Triumphs or BSAs or Hondas for that matter) and making them into cool choppers or cafe racers or whatever. The problem is, this demographic doesn't give Harley any money. They don't want the Harley branded everything. They want old bikes that they can get cheap aftermarket or NOS parts for and they want to ride those.

cptskippy 9y ago
This is the reality for a lot of companies, they have built themselves around the baby boomers who are getting to old and dying off. They've all but ignored the younger generations and now must face the reality that soon no one will care about their brand and they'll wither and die just like their core demographic. Even if millennials suddenly thought Harley was cool, they wouldn't have the money to afford one.

brokenmachine 9y ago

> And I will casually remind readers of Southparks opinion. Which is? I'm out of the loop.