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This perhaps says a lot more about the state of the Hawaii power grid than the benefits of the Powerwall. Due to economies of scale, unless your grid infrastru

This perhaps says a lot more about the state of the Hawaii power grid than the benefits of the Powerwall. Due to economies of scale, unless your grid infrastructure is really poor, grid attached energy storage is going to be cheaper than distributed energy storage. Tesla just wants to sell batteries, and consumers are easier to target than utilities.

kurthr 9y ago
See my other comment with links down thread, but HELCO (and other Hawaiian Electric Utilities) no longer support net metering, because it is not profitable (enough) for them. So they sell retail at $0.30-0.50/kWh and buy at $0.10/kWh making a lot of people upset and crashing the solar market in the islands. That makes battery storage cost effective where standard installs are much less so.
- rebuilder 9y ago
  That's really expensive electricity! I assume there are obstacles to developing more power plants in Hawaii?
  - walrus01 9y ago
    Mostly because each island is its own small grid. Everything is fossil fuel, no hydro, little wind, no nuclear. Cost of transporting fuel. Environmental concerns about air pollution (eg: no China style cheap coal power plants).
    - SweetLlamaMyth 9y ago
      Kauai (home of one of the rainiest places on Earth) has had hydro power for decades. It's currently only a small percentage of the island's total generation capacity, but it absolutely exists: http://website.kiuc.coop/content/hydroelectric http://website.kiuc.coop/content/hydroelectric
    - neltnerb 9y ago
      It's always been strange to me that an island with abundant solar and geothermal resources relies on imported oil for most of their power generation. https://www.eia.gov/state/?sid=HI https://www.eia.gov/state/?sid=HI "In 2015, Hawaii imported 91% of the energy it consumed, mostly as petroleum." They seem to be working hard on it at least, although I'm surprised that only 20% of the renewable energy production is geothermal. I guess it's just more expensive than solar nowadays.
      - DeepYogurt 9y ago
        Only one island has geothermal and it's not the main island.
      - BurningFrog 9y ago
        Iceland is exploiting the hell out of it's geothermal energy, attracting energy intensive industries like aluminium smelters and bitcoin mining. Doesn't the Big Island have similar levels of available geothermal resources? Is the difference that Iceland is an independent nation while Hawaii's decisions are made in Washington DC?
        SerLava 9y ago
        A long time ago they started using geothermal energy but some poisonous gas was released. So they shut it down permanently.
        cardamomo 9y ago
        Source?
        tdb7893 9y ago
        Most of the population lives on Oahu, which doesn't have any volcanic activity anymore as far as I know. I would be a little curious as the why the Big Island doesn't do geothermal, though. If Hawaii could get cheap geothermal power I don't see why Washington DC would block it, I don't think the power generation companies there are controlled federally but I don't know.
    - ardcarmvk 9y ago
      Don't forget H-power, Hawaii incinerates trash on Oahu and has been pretty successful with it.
    - telotortium 9y ago
      In theory, HVDC cables could be installed to transfer power between the islands (see the recent submission https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16452926 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16452926).
rl3 9y ago
>Due to economies of scale, unless your grid infrastructure is really poor, grid attached energy storage is going to be cheaper than distributed energy storage. What about transmission loss? Distributed energy storage would presumably be more efficient in that regard.

kurthr 9y ago

See my other comment with links down thread, but HELCO (and other Hawaiian Electric Utilities) no longer support net metering, because it is not profitable (enough) for them. So they sell retail at $0.30-0.50/kWh and buy at $0.10/kWh making a lot of people upset and crashing the solar market in the islands. That makes battery storage cost effective where standard installs are much less so.

rebuilder 9y ago
That's really expensive electricity! I assume there are obstacles to developing more power plants in Hawaii?
- walrus01 9y ago
  Mostly because each island is its own small grid. Everything is fossil fuel, no hydro, little wind, no nuclear. Cost of transporting fuel. Environmental concerns about air pollution (eg: no China style cheap coal power plants).
  - SweetLlamaMyth 9y ago
    Kauai (home of one of the rainiest places on Earth) has had hydro power for decades. It's currently only a small percentage of the island's total generation capacity, but it absolutely exists: http://website.kiuc.coop/content/hydroelectric http://website.kiuc.coop/content/hydroelectric
  - neltnerb 9y ago
    It's always been strange to me that an island with abundant solar and geothermal resources relies on imported oil for most of their power generation. https://www.eia.gov/state/?sid=HI https://www.eia.gov/state/?sid=HI "In 2015, Hawaii imported 91% of the energy it consumed, mostly as petroleum." They seem to be working hard on it at least, although I'm surprised that only 20% of the renewable energy production is geothermal. I guess it's just more expensive than solar nowadays.
    - DeepYogurt 9y ago
      Only one island has geothermal and it's not the main island.
    - BurningFrog 9y ago
      Iceland is exploiting the hell out of it's geothermal energy, attracting energy intensive industries like aluminium smelters and bitcoin mining. Doesn't the Big Island have similar levels of available geothermal resources? Is the difference that Iceland is an independent nation while Hawaii's decisions are made in Washington DC?
      - SerLava 9y ago
        A long time ago they started using geothermal energy but some poisonous gas was released. So they shut it down permanently.
        cardamomo 9y ago
        Source?
      - tdb7893 9y ago
        Most of the population lives on Oahu, which doesn't have any volcanic activity anymore as far as I know. I would be a little curious as the why the Big Island doesn't do geothermal, though. If Hawaii could get cheap geothermal power I don't see why Washington DC would block it, I don't think the power generation companies there are controlled federally but I don't know.
  - ardcarmvk 9y ago
    Don't forget H-power, Hawaii incinerates trash on Oahu and has been pretty successful with it.
  - telotortium 9y ago
    In theory, HVDC cables could be installed to transfer power between the islands (see the recent submission https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16452926 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16452926).

rl3 9y ago

>Due to economies of scale, unless your grid infrastructure is really poor, grid attached energy storage is going to be cheaper than distributed energy storage. What about transmission loss? Distributed energy storage would presumably be more efficient in that regard.