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Harley Davidson’s EV debut could electrify the motorcycle industry

105 points by blocked_again 9y ago

bnt 9y ago
Not really. A) It’s missing the “feel” of a Harley (e.g. the feeling of the engine between your legs), and B) Riding it in big cities where the sound of the Harley gas engine is an advantage (car drivers can hear you and not hit you when you’re in the blind spot) means the quiet electric engine could actually get you killed.
- wildrhythms 9y ago
  I've heard that Harley is trying to expand their motorcycle line because that image doesn't resonate with younger riders (riders who didn't grow up with Easy Rider). I think the Street 500/750 was supposed to attract a younger rider; the styling is very different from most HD.
  - weego 9y ago
    In Europe they're basically Porsche right. You had money to spend and no taste so you got a Harley.
    - shaki-dora 9y ago
      I'd say Porsches have far superior quality, in terms of materials, manufacturing, and engineering. And the newer 911 series models are beautiful, minimalist designs (although that's obviously a question of taste).
      - Clubber 9y ago
        HD's quality issues stem mostly from bikes made during the 70s until 84. They are pretty solid today. I don't know a lot about Porche, but Harleys are pretty solid.
    - walshemj 9y ago
      Nah that's a Honda Goldwing :-)
- Nanite 9y ago
  Is it? The"loud pipes save lives" argument seems to be mostly a myth (I can't find any credible research backing it at least).
  - oldcynic 9y ago
    It's a myth. They will prevent some accidents with pedestrians or bicycles in town because they haven't looked properly. That accident won't kill you anyway. A loud pipe will make bugger all difference when you're doing 50+ down a major road and that idiot in the 4x4 on the side road junction looks right at you, then pulls out anyway. He probably has music on so gets little input, and no direction, from your nice open pipe. What saves lives there is the biker actively moving across driver field of vision - eg weave in lane or more dramatic if you think he's going anyway. More motorcycle awareness on the car test might help, but that's not politically popular.
    - kingofhdds 9y ago
      You contradict yourself, I believe. Rider vs pedestrian can cause fatal injuries to both actually. Most likely to a pedestrian, of course, but it's still a human life, isn't it?
      - oldcynic 9y ago
        I understand, at least according to numerous speed campaigns by govt here, that accidents at speeds of 30mph or less are unlikely to kill. As speed limits in town are 30 with some areas 20mph, risk of death to either is low.
    - Gracana 9y ago
      It's especially noticeable on the highway. A loud bike or car can be heard when it's in front of you, but if it's behind you it is practically silent, and that's the time when it would be useful to notice it.
    - Clubber 9y ago
      Loud pipes create visibility (audibility?) when you are side by side with a driver, or in their blind spot. It reduces the chance of them from mindlessly swerving into your lane. People usually get clobbered by cars pulling out in front of them, or getting swerved into from the side.
- gkya 9y ago
  Please don't ride noisy stupid bags of metal and plastic anywhere. Nobody has to listen to that deafening annoying noise. Don't get me wrong I prefer a bike over a car anytime and if I needed to own a vehicle I'd get a moped, but I'd rather not add to the sound pollution and annoy the heck out of people.
- Nullabillity 9y ago
  If you think electrics are silent then you've never seen or used an electric. Signed: Disgruntled electric owner
bartread 9y ago
This could be quite cool, and something I'd certainly be up for test-riding. It would also be quite ironic, in an enjoyable sort of way, to see Harley-Davidson at the top of the pack in terms of innovation. Just hope it's got as much go as it does show, unlike most of their other offerings: Rod series aside[1], their bikes are absolutely worse than other major manufacturers' by almost any measure you care to name (performance, handling, reliability, fuel efficiency, weight, features, price, and TCO). I think the only attributes they've been winning on recently are swagger and decibels which, in fairness, are probably the two main reasons to buy a Harley... so I suppose they at least know their market. [1] And lots of people complained about the Nightrod because it wasn't a "real" Harley: it had a Porsche designed engine that incorporated modern features such as water-cooling (I'm being totally serious).
- maxerickson 9y ago
  Isn't Harley going to be making the rough equivalent of the Chevy Bolt here? Unless there are availability or technical problems with all the currently marketed electric bikes.
- gkya 9y ago
  > And lots of people complained about the Nightrod because it wasn't a "real" Harley: it had a Porsche designed engine that incorporated modern features such as water-cooling (I'm being totally serious). Serious? As if such attitude was unknown to the hacker community...
- Clubber 9y ago
  Like just about any marketing campaign, HD sells emotion rather than an actual product. One of the reasons people are drawn to HD is they are highly customizable, with a huge aftermarket of parts that are mostly "bolt on," meaning a knucklehead like me can do it.
- miaklesp 9y ago
  No need to wait. Just visit China, electric scooters is one of the most popular means of transport there.
oldcynic 9y ago
Techcrunch don't understand motorcycles do they? Trouble with motorcycles is, at least in the EU, too many years of governments putting the fix for bad car drivers onto the motorcycle license. The capacity limits and multi-part test etc are quite off-putting for new riders. Unsurprisingly, it's still car drivers causing most rider deaths. On the plus side you develop a definite 6th sense for those that will pull out - whilst looking straight through you. You also end up a much better car driver. Lifestyle ranges are part of the problem of decline. The manufacturers, Harley included - perhaps especially, have catered more and more for the born again bikers spending a lot of $$$ in their 40s+. The cost has got rather silly and many models, even Jap middleweights, have reached the cost to buy of a cheaper car. When I started only the Goldwing and rarer Italian managed that. So whilst I'd love for an EV bike to revitalise things, I suspect they'll be more of the same for the 40+ born again biker. Source: Almost 35 years of motorcycling and trying to encourage the kids to take up biking. Edit: This has been gaining plenty of up and downvotes. I'm intrigued - what's controversial here?
- volkl48 9y ago
  As with most things driving, the US is a typically a lot more relaxed than that about handing out licenses. I know in my home state (NJ) I took a 2.5 day class over a weekend and got my motorcycle endorsement from passing a basic skills test at the end of that. No capacity limits or anything else, I could have gone out and picked up a liter bike with my couple hours of riding experience (and probably gotten myself killed quickly) if I wanted.
- Clubber 9y ago
  >Trouble with motorcycles is, at least in the EU, is too many years of governments putting the fix for bad car drivers onto the motorcycle license. Yes, but as you know, even if the motorcycle is in the right, physics doesn't care. I quit riding recently after 8 years of serious riding, 18 of casual, because our sales guy, who has years of riding experience got T-Boned on a legal left turn with his wife on the back. They were "ok," meaning not dead and no brain damage, but they were pretty beat up. The moral of the story for me was, no matter how good and experienced a rider you are, you can still get clobbered. >The cost has got rather silly and many models, even Jap middleweights, have reached the cost to buy of a cheaper car. Between you and me and all the blind drivers, I'd rather buy a used sport convertible with a manual transmission. Just about the same experience for the same money, minus most of the risk of death.
spaceisballer 9y ago
I got excited in the article, especially the mention of the Zero SR bike with 135 mile range for $10k. Well the Zero SR starts at $16k. The Zero S with less range and power is around $10k.
ph33t 9y ago
One thing to understand, my Harley riding brethren, Harley cannot be targetting you. They are clearly targetting new riders. The combustion engine is a hobby as much as anything for 1/2 the riders I know; for them, it's the fun of owning a bike. Unless you have a lot of money, the only way to fix an oft-broken motorcycle is by doing yourself. I've owned a similar (not Harley) bike for a number of years. Parts are always vibrating off off the damn thing. It is loud; I do believe it helps make you visible. Yes, that is anecdotal, but I have ridden bikes with all types of pipes and I find it 100% true. I am much safer (heard) with my La Chopper's Curvedd pipes than the very quiet stock pipes; meaning, many fewer close calls. So, they are looking for riders that don't care that their machines will (ostensibly) be more reliable (less vibration), saves money on fuel, and is quiet and efficient. I care about none of those things, BUT I want Harley to stay in business, and if they can do that while attracting new riders, I fully support them. A side note, gas sport-bikes accelerate insanely fast now ... imagine how fast they will with an electric engine ... scary!
- cujo 9y ago
  The main issue I have with Harley and all the loud bikes is that riders are remarkably rude and inconsiderate. Yeah, I'm passing a very general comment around, but I don't think it's wrong. Any time you ride that thing past someones home you wake everyone up if they're sleeping and completely ruin any sense of quiet that may have existed. If your neighbor fired up a chainsaw (or six) 20 feet from your house at all hours of the day, I imagine you'd consider that neighbor similarly. So if they loud bikes go away, I'm all in favor. I think you're all acting like jerks for riding them.
  - jacquesm 9y ago
    Second that. I have lived on Overtoom in Amsterdam, one of the main avenues in and out of the city center. On any given night there would be 1000s of vehicles using that road. But for some reason the hey look at me motorcycle crowd would love to open up their throttles at 3am, you never heard anybody else except for the occasional ambulance.
  - cryptoz 9y ago
thecrumb 9y ago
Loud pipes just piss people off. And ruin your hearing. And most likely the person in the car is yacking on the phone anyone and not listening to your $500 chrome moly straight pipes. Harley is dying and needs to do something to attract younger buyers into the fold. Hopefully this will do that.
- 0xcde4c3db 9y ago
  Also, in my experience most loud pipes are so bass-heavy that even when you do pay attention to them, the sound doesn't do much to help you actually locate the bike unless it's directly to the left or right.
- stagger87 9y ago
  Harley is definitely not dying.
  - mwfunk 9y ago
    Their audience is though- the average age of a Harley owner has been trending upwards for decades. I believe it is somewhere around 67 right now, seriously. There may be some younger people buying Harleys still, but for a very long time the trend has been in the other direction. When the Boomers are gone, the company is going to have an existential crisis unless they figure out some way to expand their appeal to new demographics.
- rleigh 9y ago
  They are definitely bad for your hearing. In a previous job, my boss and his biker buddies were all deaf to varying degrees after years of biking. I got a 125cc bike and ended up wearing earplugs for anything but the shortest rides, and that was a relatively quiet bike. Even then, I'd have ringing ears for hours afterwards. I got rid of it before I'd had it a year for other reasons, but if I was in the market for another bike, being loud would not be on my list of desirable features. A quiet electric bike sounds great to me. As someone not really in the biker scene, I find the whole image people try to project with loud bikes etc. a bit ridiculous. It's not about the bike and enjoying riding it or just using it to get to places, it's all about what others think of you while you're doing it. It's a fashion/lifestyle statement, and it's not something I personally care about so much.
BatFastard 9y ago
I hear people do not like loud bikes, but as a big bike rider I loved the straight pipes on my Harley. It meant cars around me were aware of my presence, which felt critical to my survival. As a biker my biggest risk is cars being oblivious to my existence. A silent motorcycle while cool would be a huge risk for people changing lanes on top of it, pulling out in front of it. Edit: Speelling
- SirZimzim 9y ago
  Only time I hear those loud pipes is when they pass me and when they wake me up.
  - colanderman 9y ago
    Yep. The "loud pipes" are only loud when the motorcycle is already in front of you, not in, say, your blind spot where it matters.
    - BatFastard 9y ago
      I can only speak from experience. I rode a very quiet shaft driven bike for 3 years, and then I switched to a loud Harley. On city streets people were aware that I was there when driving the louder bike. On the quiet bike they would not notice me until I came right up alongside them. But that is the experience of one person.
- nugi 9y ago
  Most new bikes, and plenty of older imports, are nearly silent. They don't hear you till you pass. My old race bike got just as may blind merges as my quiet tourer. The difference seems to be riding style, staying out of blind spots and being 'unpredictable' so drivers actually notice you. That said, it is well known that the power-sound connection is a very satisfying one to the rider.
- vpribish 9y ago
  if you are so afraid on your bike that you can justify irritating everyone around you, maybe you should get a different hobby.
pwaai 9y ago
From my understanding of Harley fans is that they really really like their air-cooled engines. V-Rod, Street 750 have all gotten flak for not being 'true' harleys....because they improved on lot of the outdated tech. They can't sell even the newer bikes (revenue has fallen and closing down factories) because the demographic is steadfast in their vision of classic harley. Porsche enthusiasts also show similar preference for air cooled 70~80s models which appreciates in value....but they kept almost all parts of the formula (the car look, clock, engine in the rear) the same because when they went with a bold new look (like the tear drop of early 2000s) they were facing an uphill battle. It's sort of like the HN comment I see calling for petrol cars to be banned because electric vehicles are going to render the old ones extinct. There is a true lack of understanding the market and the buyers in a space that most HN'ers are not the target demographic.
- simonh 9y ago
  I'm not sure what you're getting at. If everyone expected electric vehicles to just naturally replace all petrol powered vehicles and make them extinct, there would be no need for talk of a ban. Of course petrol heads will always want petrol powered vehicles. The whole point of bans is to stop people doing things they would otherwise do. Note I'm not advocating a ban as such. I think it would be a shame if all petrol powered vehicles were banned, if only for historical appreciation. They might be banned from or face restrictions on their use on public highways though. However it does seem likely there will be a push back from petrol heads on that.
- theluketaylor 9y ago
  the 996 era 911 is certainly the least loved porsche 911 and it was initially due to being the first water cooled engine, but now it's because the horrible egg headlights and the fact it isn't old enough to be classic yet. The 991.1 and 991.2 have sold incredibly well and the 918 showed porsche enthusiasts hybrid would actually make their cars faster. When the 992 includes electrification there is going to be a huge demand. The air cooled leap in value didn't happen until more than a decade after porsche switched to water cooling when people realized vintage 911s had been undervalued for decades (they are excellent cars, especially with modern tires). There is likely now a bubble, especially with 912s, but there are tons of porsche guys buying both old and new stuff. I don't see current Harley guys taking to electric very well, but this is about getting a whole new generation of buyers, not about keeping their aging boomers happy.
nugi 9y ago
I'll say it. This will fail. 1. Harley demographic is entrenched, hard to pivot. Most associate with wealthy boomers and 'lowlifes', or working class murica. Not things as popular today. Other, better, performance ebikes exist, and outside this restrictive submarket, but are not thriving. And I will casually remind readers of Southparks opinion. That said, they do have diehard fans that would buy anything they made. 2. Motorcycles are all about freedom. Range issues, or even the idea of them, robs confidence. This will change, but gas is way more energy dense and on a bike it matters even more than cars. Going into the mountains is not when you want to wonder if your range will halve going up hills with gusto, or screwing it on for the corners. 3. Price perception. The electric will be awesome. Torque is so fun on bikes. But to harley riders, I think it will fell like a 'toy'. And for the price point, its gonna be a tough sell. 4. Tinkering. You do not buy a harley as an intelligent person without ever expecting to work on it. Hell, that is part of the classical appeal of them. There are more than a few explorations of life and motorcycle maintance in print. Maybe this is just my bias, but the connection with the machine is part of what makes motorcycling so intimate. I very much welcome being incorrect. I shopped for an ebike and bought another used sportbike instead.
- dugditches 9y ago
  To further point 1, Harley made the V-Rod in 2001.[1] Departure from their typically... lacking bikes(liquid cooling, engine designed in joint with Porsche). With drastically different styling. They had a niche but never really caught on. Harley also briefly had a Performance Bike company, Buell that they shuttered.[2] I'll disagree with your point 4. Even though they're still behind, modern Harleys aren't the stereotypical leaking/broken down rattling apart of the past. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buell_Motorcycle_Company https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buell_Motorcycle_Company https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harley-Davidson_VRSC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harley-Davidson_VRSC
  - nugi 9y ago
    You are correct with reguards to #4, the evo engines and later were all decent I hear. My point partly stands as nobody seems to leave their bike stock, and mods will be limited. American sportbikes have always had problems, even without harleys heavy hand. The Buell story really is a sad and facinating one for anyone interested in business.
jankotek 9y ago
Electric motorbikes are very common outside US.
- kingofhdds 9y ago
  Hm, where exactly? "Outside US" is a lot of space. I saw electric bicycles, and electric scooters in some European countries, but they are still far from being called common. And so far I never saw anything looking like a real motorcycle with electric engine.
exabrial 9y ago
Not that weight was ever a concern for Harley... But the thing that makes bikes fun is power to weight ratio. It's impossible not to grin when straddling upwards of a hundred horsepower on a frame that weighs less than a thousand pounds. My R6 weighed 359lbs and had a 123hp. It was hilariously fun to ride.
- driverdan 9y ago
  Apples and oranges. The R6 is a sports bike. Harley makes cruisers. 460lbs is light for a Harley, especially with batteries.
1024core 9y ago
" It has 74 horsepower, a 93 mph top speed, 50 mile ride time," 50 miles?!? Is that it??
city41 9y ago
I find the drastic drop in motorcycle sales interesting. I used to ride and really love it (and miss it). But I haven’t owned a bike in 4 years. For me the increase in traffic and more importantly the dramatic increase in distracted drivers due to cell phones makes riding more dangerous than I’m comfortable with. I wonder if others feel the same.
- mmmBacon 9y ago
  I still ride and but stopped riding street because it wasn’t fun being in traffic due to the reasons you mentioned. I still like the occasional back road ride but don’t own a street bike anymore. I ride exclusively off-road now. While I might risk an injury, I’m probably not going to be killed. Off-road riding and particularly motocross has vastly improved my skill level when I do ride on the road. I credit my dirt skills with saving my life on the freeway when someone pulled into my suddenly lane and I locked up the rear wheel (mistake!) on an oily patch of road. Since I was familiar with the rear wheel sliding and being locked up, my reflexes took over and I didn’t panic, at least not until after. I’m not saying that I didn’t have to change my underwear afterwards but I didn’t end up getting run over by the car behind me. The drop in sales you point out is the recession and crash of the housing market in 2008.
purplezooey 9y ago
Thank God. Loud motorcycles are one of the top problems of my community. Please, use a muffler.
cmutel 9y ago
We just published a study on the environmental performance of current and future battery and fuel cell motorcycles (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306261917318238 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S030626191... ; also available via scihub). The supporting information is open Jupyter notebooks, though some of the background data is closed. The environmental performance of electric motorcycles is different than cars: - Cars need ancillary services like heating, increasing battery size - Motorcycles have no real chance at regenerative braking - Motorcycles are driven fewer kilometers than cars, making the impact of the vehicle more important (as opposed to the fuel). Currently, we estimate that battery motorcycles are preferable across a variety of environmental indicators, though results differ for small and large motorcycles, which have very different usage patterns. Feel free to contact me directly if interested in discussing or collaborating on open source life cycle assessment code or data (https://brightwaylca.org/ https://brightwaylca.org/, https://chris.mutel.org/ https://chris.mutel.org/).
- hfdgiutdryg 9y ago
  Motorcycles have no real chance at regenerative braking They do, but it has to come from the front wheel. An electric generator would be heavy and add significant unsprung weight. KTM experimented with a 2wd dirt bike. It used hydraulic lines to transfer energy to the front wheel. A similar system could be used for regenerative braking. https://www.google.com/amp/s/motocrossactionmag.com/amp/all-wheel-drive-ktm-is-the-bloom-off-the-rose https://www.google.com/amp/s/motocrossactionmag.com/amp/all-...
keeringplastik 9y ago
Sounds like a bunch of grumpy grandpas in here today. "Those hogs are too loud!" "My delicate hearing!" I can agree though that the "loud pipes save lives" argument is silly. The truth behind the loud Harley mystique though, is much simpler and obvious to those who have ever ridden one: crack that throttle and a smile is inevitable. It just feels good to ride a big, rumbling, thundering internal combustion engine. Yes, you might channel your inner knuckle dragging primate, but it doesn't mean you are one, or need to be one to understand it.
- baron816 9y ago
  That noise is an externality. It’s pollution. I can’t count how many times I’ve been woken up in the middle of the night by someone riding down my street on a Harley. Those things should be taxed into extinction.
  - keeringplastik 9y ago
    Its really not. If it sounds like a dishwasher it just isn't the same. That being said, it is rude to use excessive throttle in residential areas after hours.
    - rconti 9y ago
      You are factually incorrect. It is an externality and it is pollution. And you own the hatred that falls upon ALL of your fellow riders. So thanks, for that. Everyone who doesn't own a Harley thinks it sounds terrible and hates it. The only reason you don't hear more about it is because people are too polite to speak up. You are the yappy-dog-in-a-grocery-store-dressed-up-as-a-service-dog of the vehicular world. 100% self centered entitlement, relying on the courtesy of others to tolerate your atrocious behavior.
mulmen 9y ago
As a rider "loud pipes save lives" is just justification of people who want to make noise but won't own the responsibility of admitting it. My motorcycle has a horn that faces forward for a reason. I use it respectfully all the time for my own safety. Riding a motorcycle without a horn is as irresponsible and dangerous as riding one with bald tires or poorly maintained brakes. Take responsibility for your own safety. Ride defensively. Don't be a jerk.
- reificator 9y ago
  My bike is exceptionally quiet, and I get constant flak from "fellow riders"[1] at work. When they call my bike a scooter because it's so quiet, that tells me a lot about why they bought their bike. When they then also claim that they only care about noise because of safety.... [1]: Who haven't been on their bikes in years.
  - pasabagi 9y ago
    I like walking, and honestly, it makes me feel very happy to know that there are bikers who don't ride noisy bikes. There's nothing more depressing than being in what feels like a perfect wilderness, except the sound of motorbikes roaring through the valleys.
    - mulmen 9y ago
      Not sure if you are talking about dirt bikes or just road bikes in a more rural setting. I can however imagine there are things more depressing than engine noise so your claim is hyperbolic. I do not ride a quiet motorcycle on the street. My pipes are louder than stock (no baffles) but I still have mufflers. This bike is louder than stock because I like how it sounds. I admit that makes me a bit of a jerk. I don't hide behind dubious claims of safety.
      - pasabagi 9y ago
        Road bikes, actually. It just takes one road, and unfortunately the kind of places that are good to walk in are also fun to bike in. I think as it goes, the 'jerk'-ness of riding a loud motorbike is a small subset of the greater jerkness of petrol-based vehicles in general. As a value proposition, widespread car ownership is about the most horrible idea for public transportation imaginable, in most places. I'm really looking forward to the end of it, to be honest. Public transport has lots of nice side-effects - like increasing general health (through reducing polution, for instance), or making the elderly more able to get around. Cars just have negatives - and most of the time, they're just a really uncomfortable way to sit still in traffic.
monk_e_boy 9y ago
Loud pipes save lives is something I f-ing hate as I live at the bottom of a steep hill up which motor bikes love to show off their obnoxiously load farting sounds. Bring on the understated. The quiet and classy. The silent but deadly farting sounds.
ianai 9y ago
Is there anybody making an enclosed 1,2 person trike? That seems like a way to get to a 300 mile EV sooner and more than enough for city use.
- petascale 9y ago
  Arcimoto: https://www.arcimoto.com https://www.arcimoto.com 100 mile range rather than 300, but interesting concept nonetheless.
Izmaki 9y ago
Part of the fun of riding a motorbike is hearing the majestic roar from the engine as you accelerate from 1-60 mph in a handful of seconds. This is not for everyone, no, but electric motorbikes makes me personally laugh.
- whoiskevin 9y ago
  What makes me laugh is the silent burst from 0 to 60 of my Zero while your still waiting for the first roar. Snarky aside are you in it for the acceleration? If you are the electric is something you might want to try.
jumpmanjr 9y ago
This is a great application for police motorcycles. Instantaneous acceleration, and long periods of completely idle. Couple it with being US made, and the police forces will eat them up.

105 points by blocked_again 9y ago

bnt 9y ago

Not really. A) It’s missing the “feel” of a Harley (e.g. the feeling of the engine between your legs), and B) Riding it in big cities where the sound of the Harley gas engine is an advantage (car drivers can hear you and not hit you when you’re in the blind spot) means the quiet electric engine could actually get you killed.

wildrhythms 9y ago
I've heard that Harley is trying to expand their motorcycle line because that image doesn't resonate with younger riders (riders who didn't grow up with Easy Rider). I think the Street 500/750 was supposed to attract a younger rider; the styling is very different from most HD.
- weego 9y ago
  In Europe they're basically Porsche right. You had money to spend and no taste so you got a Harley.
  - shaki-dora 9y ago
    I'd say Porsches have far superior quality, in terms of materials, manufacturing, and engineering. And the newer 911 series models are beautiful, minimalist designs (although that's obviously a question of taste).
    - Clubber 9y ago
      HD's quality issues stem mostly from bikes made during the 70s until 84. They are pretty solid today. I don't know a lot about Porche, but Harleys are pretty solid.
  - walshemj 9y ago
    Nah that's a Honda Goldwing :-)
Nanite 9y ago
Is it? The"loud pipes save lives" argument seems to be mostly a myth (I can't find any credible research backing it at least).
- oldcynic 9y ago
  It's a myth. They will prevent some accidents with pedestrians or bicycles in town because they haven't looked properly. That accident won't kill you anyway. A loud pipe will make bugger all difference when you're doing 50+ down a major road and that idiot in the 4x4 on the side road junction looks right at you, then pulls out anyway. He probably has music on so gets little input, and no direction, from your nice open pipe. What saves lives there is the biker actively moving across driver field of vision - eg weave in lane or more dramatic if you think he's going anyway. More motorcycle awareness on the car test might help, but that's not politically popular.
  - kingofhdds 9y ago
    You contradict yourself, I believe. Rider vs pedestrian can cause fatal injuries to both actually. Most likely to a pedestrian, of course, but it's still a human life, isn't it?
    - oldcynic 9y ago
      I understand, at least according to numerous speed campaigns by govt here, that accidents at speeds of 30mph or less are unlikely to kill. As speed limits in town are 30 with some areas 20mph, risk of death to either is low.
  - Gracana 9y ago
    It's especially noticeable on the highway. A loud bike or car can be heard when it's in front of you, but if it's behind you it is practically silent, and that's the time when it would be useful to notice it.
  - Clubber 9y ago
    Loud pipes create visibility (audibility?) when you are side by side with a driver, or in their blind spot. It reduces the chance of them from mindlessly swerving into your lane. People usually get clobbered by cars pulling out in front of them, or getting swerved into from the side.
gkya 9y ago
Please don't ride noisy stupid bags of metal and plastic anywhere. Nobody has to listen to that deafening annoying noise. Don't get me wrong I prefer a bike over a car anytime and if I needed to own a vehicle I'd get a moped, but I'd rather not add to the sound pollution and annoy the heck out of people.
Nullabillity 9y ago
If you think electrics are silent then you've never seen or used an electric. Signed: Disgruntled electric owner

bartread 9y ago

This could be quite cool, and something I'd certainly be up for test-riding. It would also be quite ironic, in an enjoyable sort of way, to see Harley-Davidson at the top of the pack in terms of innovation. Just hope it's got as much go as it does show, unlike most of their other offerings: Rod series aside[1], their bikes are absolutely worse than other major manufacturers' by almost any measure you care to name (performance, handling, reliability, fuel efficiency, weight, features, price, and TCO). I think the only attributes they've been winning on recently are swagger and decibels which, in fairness, are probably the two main reasons to buy a Harley... so I suppose they at least know their market. [1] And lots of people complained about the Nightrod because it wasn't a "real" Harley: it had a Porsche designed engine that incorporated modern features such as water-cooling (I'm being totally serious).

maxerickson 9y ago
Isn't Harley going to be making the rough equivalent of the Chevy Bolt here? Unless there are availability or technical problems with all the currently marketed electric bikes.
gkya 9y ago
> And lots of people complained about the Nightrod because it wasn't a "real" Harley: it had a Porsche designed engine that incorporated modern features such as water-cooling (I'm being totally serious). Serious? As if such attitude was unknown to the hacker community...
Clubber 9y ago
Like just about any marketing campaign, HD sells emotion rather than an actual product. One of the reasons people are drawn to HD is they are highly customizable, with a huge aftermarket of parts that are mostly "bolt on," meaning a knucklehead like me can do it.
miaklesp 9y ago
No need to wait. Just visit China, electric scooters is one of the most popular means of transport there.

oldcynic 9y ago

Techcrunch don't understand motorcycles do they? Trouble with motorcycles is, at least in the EU, too many years of governments putting the fix for bad car drivers onto the motorcycle license. The capacity limits and multi-part test etc are quite off-putting for new riders. Unsurprisingly, it's still car drivers causing most rider deaths. On the plus side you develop a definite 6th sense for those that will pull out - whilst looking straight through you. You also end up a much better car driver. Lifestyle ranges are part of the problem of decline. The manufacturers, Harley included - perhaps especially, have catered more and more for the born again bikers spending a lot of $$$ in their 40s+. The cost has got rather silly and many models, even Jap middleweights, have reached the cost to buy of a cheaper car. When I started only the Goldwing and rarer Italian managed that. So whilst I'd love for an EV bike to revitalise things, I suspect they'll be more of the same for the 40+ born again biker. Source: Almost 35 years of motorcycling and trying to encourage the kids to take up biking. Edit: This has been gaining plenty of up and downvotes. I'm intrigued - what's controversial here?

volkl48 9y ago
As with most things driving, the US is a typically a lot more relaxed than that about handing out licenses. I know in my home state (NJ) I took a 2.5 day class over a weekend and got my motorcycle endorsement from passing a basic skills test at the end of that. No capacity limits or anything else, I could have gone out and picked up a liter bike with my couple hours of riding experience (and probably gotten myself killed quickly) if I wanted.
Clubber 9y ago
>Trouble with motorcycles is, at least in the EU, is too many years of governments putting the fix for bad car drivers onto the motorcycle license. Yes, but as you know, even if the motorcycle is in the right, physics doesn't care. I quit riding recently after 8 years of serious riding, 18 of casual, because our sales guy, who has years of riding experience got T-Boned on a legal left turn with his wife on the back. They were "ok," meaning not dead and no brain damage, but they were pretty beat up. The moral of the story for me was, no matter how good and experienced a rider you are, you can still get clobbered. >The cost has got rather silly and many models, even Jap middleweights, have reached the cost to buy of a cheaper car. Between you and me and all the blind drivers, I'd rather buy a used sport convertible with a manual transmission. Just about the same experience for the same money, minus most of the risk of death.

spaceisballer 9y ago

I got excited in the article, especially the mention of the Zero SR bike with 135 mile range for $10k. Well the Zero SR starts at $16k. The Zero S with less range and power is around $10k.

ph33t 9y ago

One thing to understand, my Harley riding brethren, Harley cannot be targetting you. They are clearly targetting new riders. The combustion engine is a hobby as much as anything for 1/2 the riders I know; for them, it's the fun of owning a bike. Unless you have a lot of money, the only way to fix an oft-broken motorcycle is by doing yourself. I've owned a similar (not Harley) bike for a number of years. Parts are always vibrating off off the damn thing. It is loud; I do believe it helps make you visible. Yes, that is anecdotal, but I have ridden bikes with all types of pipes and I find it 100% true. I am much safer (heard) with my La Chopper's Curvedd pipes than the very quiet stock pipes; meaning, many fewer close calls. So, they are looking for riders that don't care that their machines will (ostensibly) be more reliable (less vibration), saves money on fuel, and is quiet and efficient. I care about none of those things, BUT I want Harley to stay in business, and if they can do that while attracting new riders, I fully support them. A side note, gas sport-bikes accelerate insanely fast now ... imagine how fast they will with an electric engine ... scary!

cujo 9y ago
The main issue I have with Harley and all the loud bikes is that riders are remarkably rude and inconsiderate. Yeah, I'm passing a very general comment around, but I don't think it's wrong. Any time you ride that thing past someones home you wake everyone up if they're sleeping and completely ruin any sense of quiet that may have existed. If your neighbor fired up a chainsaw (or six) 20 feet from your house at all hours of the day, I imagine you'd consider that neighbor similarly. So if they loud bikes go away, I'm all in favor. I think you're all acting like jerks for riding them.
- jacquesm 9y ago
  Second that. I have lived on Overtoom in Amsterdam, one of the main avenues in and out of the city center. On any given night there would be 1000s of vehicles using that road. But for some reason the hey look at me motorcycle crowd would love to open up their throttles at 3am, you never heard anybody else except for the occasional ambulance.
- cryptoz 9y ago

thecrumb 9y ago

Loud pipes just piss people off. And ruin your hearing. And most likely the person in the car is yacking on the phone anyone and not listening to your $500 chrome moly straight pipes. Harley is dying and needs to do something to attract younger buyers into the fold. Hopefully this will do that.

0xcde4c3db 9y ago
Also, in my experience most loud pipes are so bass-heavy that even when you do pay attention to them, the sound doesn't do much to help you actually locate the bike unless it's directly to the left or right.
stagger87 9y ago
Harley is definitely not dying.
- mwfunk 9y ago
  Their audience is though- the average age of a Harley owner has been trending upwards for decades. I believe it is somewhere around 67 right now, seriously. There may be some younger people buying Harleys still, but for a very long time the trend has been in the other direction. When the Boomers are gone, the company is going to have an existential crisis unless they figure out some way to expand their appeal to new demographics.
rleigh 9y ago
They are definitely bad for your hearing. In a previous job, my boss and his biker buddies were all deaf to varying degrees after years of biking. I got a 125cc bike and ended up wearing earplugs for anything but the shortest rides, and that was a relatively quiet bike. Even then, I'd have ringing ears for hours afterwards. I got rid of it before I'd had it a year for other reasons, but if I was in the market for another bike, being loud would not be on my list of desirable features. A quiet electric bike sounds great to me. As someone not really in the biker scene, I find the whole image people try to project with loud bikes etc. a bit ridiculous. It's not about the bike and enjoying riding it or just using it to get to places, it's all about what others think of you while you're doing it. It's a fashion/lifestyle statement, and it's not something I personally care about so much.

BatFastard 9y ago

I hear people do not like loud bikes, but as a big bike rider I loved the straight pipes on my Harley. It meant cars around me were aware of my presence, which felt critical to my survival. As a biker my biggest risk is cars being oblivious to my existence. A silent motorcycle while cool would be a huge risk for people changing lanes on top of it, pulling out in front of it. Edit: Speelling

SirZimzim 9y ago
Only time I hear those loud pipes is when they pass me and when they wake me up.
- colanderman 9y ago
  Yep. The "loud pipes" are only loud when the motorcycle is already in front of you, not in, say, your blind spot where it matters.
  - BatFastard 9y ago
    I can only speak from experience. I rode a very quiet shaft driven bike for 3 years, and then I switched to a loud Harley. On city streets people were aware that I was there when driving the louder bike. On the quiet bike they would not notice me until I came right up alongside them. But that is the experience of one person.
nugi 9y ago
Most new bikes, and plenty of older imports, are nearly silent. They don't hear you till you pass. My old race bike got just as may blind merges as my quiet tourer. The difference seems to be riding style, staying out of blind spots and being 'unpredictable' so drivers actually notice you. That said, it is well known that the power-sound connection is a very satisfying one to the rider.
vpribish 9y ago
if you are so afraid on your bike that you can justify irritating everyone around you, maybe you should get a different hobby.

pwaai 9y ago

From my understanding of Harley fans is that they really really like their air-cooled engines. V-Rod, Street 750 have all gotten flak for not being 'true' harleys....because they improved on lot of the outdated tech. They can't sell even the newer bikes (revenue has fallen and closing down factories) because the demographic is steadfast in their vision of classic harley. Porsche enthusiasts also show similar preference for air cooled 70~80s models which appreciates in value....but they kept almost all parts of the formula (the car look, clock, engine in the rear) the same because when they went with a bold new look (like the tear drop of early 2000s) they were facing an uphill battle. It's sort of like the HN comment I see calling for petrol cars to be banned because electric vehicles are going to render the old ones extinct. There is a true lack of understanding the market and the buyers in a space that most HN'ers are not the target demographic.

simonh 9y ago
I'm not sure what you're getting at. If everyone expected electric vehicles to just naturally replace all petrol powered vehicles and make them extinct, there would be no need for talk of a ban. Of course petrol heads will always want petrol powered vehicles. The whole point of bans is to stop people doing things they would otherwise do. Note I'm not advocating a ban as such. I think it would be a shame if all petrol powered vehicles were banned, if only for historical appreciation. They might be banned from or face restrictions on their use on public highways though. However it does seem likely there will be a push back from petrol heads on that.
theluketaylor 9y ago
the 996 era 911 is certainly the least loved porsche 911 and it was initially due to being the first water cooled engine, but now it's because the horrible egg headlights and the fact it isn't old enough to be classic yet. The 991.1 and 991.2 have sold incredibly well and the 918 showed porsche enthusiasts hybrid would actually make their cars faster. When the 992 includes electrification there is going to be a huge demand. The air cooled leap in value didn't happen until more than a decade after porsche switched to water cooling when people realized vintage 911s had been undervalued for decades (they are excellent cars, especially with modern tires). There is likely now a bubble, especially with 912s, but there are tons of porsche guys buying both old and new stuff. I don't see current Harley guys taking to electric very well, but this is about getting a whole new generation of buyers, not about keeping their aging boomers happy.

nugi 9y ago

I'll say it. This will fail. 1. Harley demographic is entrenched, hard to pivot. Most associate with wealthy boomers and 'lowlifes', or working class murica. Not things as popular today. Other, better, performance ebikes exist, and outside this restrictive submarket, but are not thriving. And I will casually remind readers of Southparks opinion. That said, they do have diehard fans that would buy anything they made. 2. Motorcycles are all about freedom. Range issues, or even the idea of them, robs confidence. This will change, but gas is way more energy dense and on a bike it matters even more than cars. Going into the mountains is not when you want to wonder if your range will halve going up hills with gusto, or screwing it on for the corners. 3. Price perception. The electric will be awesome. Torque is so fun on bikes. But to harley riders, I think it will fell like a 'toy'. And for the price point, its gonna be a tough sell. 4. Tinkering. You do not buy a harley as an intelligent person without ever expecting to work on it. Hell, that is part of the classical appeal of them. There are more than a few explorations of life and motorcycle maintance in print. Maybe this is just my bias, but the connection with the machine is part of what makes motorcycling so intimate. I very much welcome being incorrect. I shopped for an ebike and bought another used sportbike instead.

dugditches 9y ago
To further point 1, Harley made the V-Rod in 2001.[1] Departure from their typically... lacking bikes(liquid cooling, engine designed in joint with Porsche). With drastically different styling. They had a niche but never really caught on. Harley also briefly had a Performance Bike company, Buell that they shuttered.[2] I'll disagree with your point 4. Even though they're still behind, modern Harleys aren't the stereotypical leaking/broken down rattling apart of the past. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buell_Motorcycle_Company https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buell_Motorcycle_Company https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harley-Davidson_VRSC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harley-Davidson_VRSC
- nugi 9y ago
  You are correct with reguards to #4, the evo engines and later were all decent I hear. My point partly stands as nobody seems to leave their bike stock, and mods will be limited. American sportbikes have always had problems, even without harleys heavy hand. The Buell story really is a sad and facinating one for anyone interested in business.

jankotek 9y ago

Electric motorbikes are very common outside US.

kingofhdds 9y ago
Hm, where exactly? "Outside US" is a lot of space. I saw electric bicycles, and electric scooters in some European countries, but they are still far from being called common. And so far I never saw anything looking like a real motorcycle with electric engine.

exabrial 9y ago

Not that weight was ever a concern for Harley... But the thing that makes bikes fun is power to weight ratio. It's impossible not to grin when straddling upwards of a hundred horsepower on a frame that weighs less than a thousand pounds. My R6 weighed 359lbs and had a 123hp. It was hilariously fun to ride.

driverdan 9y ago
Apples and oranges. The R6 is a sports bike. Harley makes cruisers. 460lbs is light for a Harley, especially with batteries.

1024core 9y ago

" It has 74 horsepower, a 93 mph top speed, 50 mile ride time," 50 miles?!? Is that it??

city41 9y ago

I find the drastic drop in motorcycle sales interesting. I used to ride and really love it (and miss it). But I haven’t owned a bike in 4 years. For me the increase in traffic and more importantly the dramatic increase in distracted drivers due to cell phones makes riding more dangerous than I’m comfortable with. I wonder if others feel the same.

mmmBacon 9y ago
I still ride and but stopped riding street because it wasn’t fun being in traffic due to the reasons you mentioned. I still like the occasional back road ride but don’t own a street bike anymore. I ride exclusively off-road now. While I might risk an injury, I’m probably not going to be killed. Off-road riding and particularly motocross has vastly improved my skill level when I do ride on the road. I credit my dirt skills with saving my life on the freeway when someone pulled into my suddenly lane and I locked up the rear wheel (mistake!) on an oily patch of road. Since I was familiar with the rear wheel sliding and being locked up, my reflexes took over and I didn’t panic, at least not until after. I’m not saying that I didn’t have to change my underwear afterwards but I didn’t end up getting run over by the car behind me. The drop in sales you point out is the recession and crash of the housing market in 2008.

purplezooey 9y ago

Thank God. Loud motorcycles are one of the top problems of my community. Please, use a muffler.

cmutel 9y ago

We just published a study on the environmental performance of current and future battery and fuel cell motorcycles (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306261917318238 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S030626191... ; also available via scihub). The supporting information is open Jupyter notebooks, though some of the background data is closed. The environmental performance of electric motorcycles is different than cars: - Cars need ancillary services like heating, increasing battery size - Motorcycles have no real chance at regenerative braking - Motorcycles are driven fewer kilometers than cars, making the impact of the vehicle more important (as opposed to the fuel). Currently, we estimate that battery motorcycles are preferable across a variety of environmental indicators, though results differ for small and large motorcycles, which have very different usage patterns. Feel free to contact me directly if interested in discussing or collaborating on open source life cycle assessment code or data (https://brightwaylca.org/ https://brightwaylca.org/, https://chris.mutel.org/ https://chris.mutel.org/).

hfdgiutdryg 9y ago
Motorcycles have no real chance at regenerative braking They do, but it has to come from the front wheel. An electric generator would be heavy and add significant unsprung weight. KTM experimented with a 2wd dirt bike. It used hydraulic lines to transfer energy to the front wheel. A similar system could be used for regenerative braking. https://www.google.com/amp/s/motocrossactionmag.com/amp/all-wheel-drive-ktm-is-the-bloom-off-the-rose https://www.google.com/amp/s/motocrossactionmag.com/amp/all-...

keeringplastik 9y ago

Sounds like a bunch of grumpy grandpas in here today. "Those hogs are too loud!" "My delicate hearing!" I can agree though that the "loud pipes save lives" argument is silly. The truth behind the loud Harley mystique though, is much simpler and obvious to those who have ever ridden one: crack that throttle and a smile is inevitable. It just feels good to ride a big, rumbling, thundering internal combustion engine. Yes, you might channel your inner knuckle dragging primate, but it doesn't mean you are one, or need to be one to understand it.

baron816 9y ago
That noise is an externality. It’s pollution. I can’t count how many times I’ve been woken up in the middle of the night by someone riding down my street on a Harley. Those things should be taxed into extinction.
- keeringplastik 9y ago
  Its really not. If it sounds like a dishwasher it just isn't the same. That being said, it is rude to use excessive throttle in residential areas after hours.
  - rconti 9y ago
    You are factually incorrect. It is an externality and it is pollution. And you own the hatred that falls upon ALL of your fellow riders. So thanks, for that. Everyone who doesn't own a Harley thinks it sounds terrible and hates it. The only reason you don't hear more about it is because people are too polite to speak up. You are the yappy-dog-in-a-grocery-store-dressed-up-as-a-service-dog of the vehicular world. 100% self centered entitlement, relying on the courtesy of others to tolerate your atrocious behavior.

mulmen 9y ago

As a rider "loud pipes save lives" is just justification of people who want to make noise but won't own the responsibility of admitting it. My motorcycle has a horn that faces forward for a reason. I use it respectfully all the time for my own safety. Riding a motorcycle without a horn is as irresponsible and dangerous as riding one with bald tires or poorly maintained brakes. Take responsibility for your own safety. Ride defensively. Don't be a jerk.

reificator 9y ago
My bike is exceptionally quiet, and I get constant flak from "fellow riders"[1] at work. When they call my bike a scooter because it's so quiet, that tells me a lot about why they bought their bike. When they then also claim that they only care about noise because of safety.... [1]: Who haven't been on their bikes in years.
- pasabagi 9y ago
  I like walking, and honestly, it makes me feel very happy to know that there are bikers who don't ride noisy bikes. There's nothing more depressing than being in what feels like a perfect wilderness, except the sound of motorbikes roaring through the valleys.
  - mulmen 9y ago
    Not sure if you are talking about dirt bikes or just road bikes in a more rural setting. I can however imagine there are things more depressing than engine noise so your claim is hyperbolic. I do not ride a quiet motorcycle on the street. My pipes are louder than stock (no baffles) but I still have mufflers. This bike is louder than stock because I like how it sounds. I admit that makes me a bit of a jerk. I don't hide behind dubious claims of safety.
    - pasabagi 9y ago
      Road bikes, actually. It just takes one road, and unfortunately the kind of places that are good to walk in are also fun to bike in. I think as it goes, the 'jerk'-ness of riding a loud motorbike is a small subset of the greater jerkness of petrol-based vehicles in general. As a value proposition, widespread car ownership is about the most horrible idea for public transportation imaginable, in most places. I'm really looking forward to the end of it, to be honest. Public transport has lots of nice side-effects - like increasing general health (through reducing polution, for instance), or making the elderly more able to get around. Cars just have negatives - and most of the time, they're just a really uncomfortable way to sit still in traffic.

monk_e_boy 9y ago

Loud pipes save lives is something I f-ing hate as I live at the bottom of a steep hill up which motor bikes love to show off their obnoxiously load farting sounds. Bring on the understated. The quiet and classy. The silent but deadly farting sounds.

ianai 9y ago

Is there anybody making an enclosed 1,2 person trike? That seems like a way to get to a 300 mile EV sooner and more than enough for city use.

petascale 9y ago
Arcimoto: https://www.arcimoto.com https://www.arcimoto.com 100 mile range rather than 300, but interesting concept nonetheless.

Izmaki 9y ago

Part of the fun of riding a motorbike is hearing the majestic roar from the engine as you accelerate from 1-60 mph in a handful of seconds. This is not for everyone, no, but electric motorbikes makes me personally laugh.

whoiskevin 9y ago
What makes me laugh is the silent burst from 0 to 60 of my Zero while your still waiting for the first roar. Snarky aside are you in it for the acceleration? If you are the electric is something you might want to try.

jumpmanjr 9y ago

This is a great application for police motorcycles. Instantaneous acceleration, and long periods of completely idle. Couple it with being US made, and the police forces will eat them up.