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The Philosophy of Computer Science
- zengid 9y agoHonest question: is this useful?
- themodelplumber 9y agoSure: It's designed, like any qualitative model, to yield leverage. Know the laws, understand the principles, and soon you can pull off something amazing. Maybe it guides you into a career path within the broad field of CS, or perhaps you use the principles as metaphor-templates for your personal CS education. "In what way could this Hello World program be described as a mathematical object? Is it an axiomatic theory? What is that?" etc. What I find problematic about the design here, however, is that it is overly referential at the cost of direct information transfer to the reader. Rather than communicate a logical chain of thought regarding a principle, it communicates that such-and-such a thing is thought by so-and-so to be a this-or-that. It seems to have been produced within a system that prioritizes thought-originator-referencing. Which would be fine except I'd imagine that most people who read "The Philosophy of Computer Science" probably aren't expecting what seems a lot like an extended bibliography.
- nikki93 9y agoAren’t names always referential, in the sense of refering to a meaning or in the abstract, some memory or experience, or even future experiences, that an interpreter has/is/will have? So is the issue you point out that the names are heavily loaded and proper nouns? And how is that at the cost of information transfer (one might argue it transfers more information since you are sending “heavy words” which decompress to a lot of content under a “lookup”)?
- themodelplumber 9y ago> direct information transfer
- nikki93 9y agoWell, all information transfer involves indirection by name, so what you’re getting at is that this lies on a spectrum where the words use are “heavy” and involve lookups where the definitions aren’t in the reader’s cache already? I’m pointing to a parallel here for similar “lookups” in the interpretation of a program by computer ... so maybe the issue is the programs analogous to the way this page is written involve like far network fetches.
- elefanten 9y agoThat's the style used throughout the whole Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy. My guess is that style is used because it originates from and serves the academic community, where references are the norm. I agree it'd be cool to see the other version of this too.
- pasabagi 9y agoI think the problem with communicating a logical chain of thought is that it presupposes the idea that logic is immutable and continuous throughout the chain. In sciences, logic is usually fairly immutable because it's not the object of study, so you can show the ideas, without context, and they'll make sense because the frame of reference is constant. In philosophy, it's usually the case that if you simply presented the idea, without reference to the thinker, you'd definitely provoke misunderstandings, if not incomprehension. Philosophers don't have a common conceptual vocabulary, so when you think a given thinker is referring to a given idea (say, logic) you can really only say for certain that they're referring to their understanding of the idea. Further, they don't have a common vocabulary for describing ideas - often to the point that you get 'young' and 'old' versions of the same thinker (for instance, Hume) because they use words in different ways within their own corpus. So, if you wanted to present a logical chain of ideas, you'd have to develop first, your own logic that is a superset of all the contained systems of thought. Then, you'd have to develop a vocabulary that unifies disparate concepts without reducing their complexity. Predictably, most philosophers have come to the conclusion it's easier just to organize thought by thinkers rather than ideas. Non-philosophers tend to see this as some kind of veiled appeal to authority - but it isn't really. Philosophers are very happy to pervert, break, or alter the corpus of a given thinker in order to do something new with it. The strength of philosophy depends on rigorous questioning, and rigorous questioning does not tend to lead to monolithic bodies of thought - and that's what you'd need to produce the kind of logical and lexical superset an idea-oriented approach would need to be practical. Without substantial agreement on very many basic questions, such an approach would undoubtedly just do violence to the ideas.
- aje403 9y agoThis has zero practical usage unless you have a personal interest in the subject, in which case, go for it
- nikki93 9y agoThere are interesting things here to think about, and I think in practice a lot of discussions folks have in building software is philosophical. Another approach: What is/are the type(s) of argument that would convince you that something is useful? We could see if there is such an argument.
- sedachv 9y agoAbsolutely, because it keeps you from wasting time. Computer programming is applied analytic philosophy and unfortunately very few people realize this. For example, if more people knew about the shortcomings of Platonism, we wouldn't be wasting time on idiotic fads like OO patterns.
- pasabagi 9y agoCan you expand on this? To me, Plato seems like a fairly good fit for the computer world. I also think that, from the perspective of analytic philosophy, OO patterns make some kind of sense - since they allow us to clarify problems as being subsets of more general ones.
- ptrincr 9y agoI'm sure that most people who have studied OO would find many similarities with Plato's forms. The same could be said of Spinoza's attributes, however the latter is much more abstract (to say the least). Without digressing too much from the topic however, I think OO has it's place. Sometimes it's rather like constructing scaffolding prior to building a small dog house, unnecessarily complex.
- empath75 9y agoI’d think that inheritance makes oo closer to Aristotle’s categories.
- sedachv 9y ago> Can you expand on this? To me, Plato seems like a fairly good fit for the computer world. That is exactly the issue - computing is the closest thing we will ever have to Platonic Idealism. You can create simple, elegant, symmetric worlds. Many people instead assume that whatever poorly designed programming language is around at the moment is the be-all, end-all Platonic world that they must inhabit, and then proceed to come up with all kinds of dumb workarounds because the programming language does not model whatever they are trying to express, all the while patting themselves on the back for being clever and creating "abstractions." OO patterns do not make any kind of sense. There is no "generality" or "abstraction" about Singletons or Factories. They are made-up nonsense terms for ad-hoc techniques people hacked together to work around the problems they had trying to apply certain classes of OO languages to modeling certain kinds of problems in the real world. So the contrast should be between different philosophic schools - if patterns (and OO inheritance) is like Platonism, what would materialism be? I think DSLs and DDD is a kind of materialist view on computer programming. And DDD's emphasis on clear and precise naming and concepts is very much what analytic philosophy is also concerned with.
- igravious 9y agoI don't see why not. It's always a useful exercise to take a step back and see how things from different domains might connect up. It's also useful to understand how a discipline has evolved. Computing and information seem like very fundamental concepts now that we've stumbled upon them so it seems right and proper that we figure out how these things interface with all the other things we know about. Incidentally I've seen Wadler suggest we call the field Informatics. I'd prefer that I think. The word science is doing too much work nowadays and computer science is only a science in the formal science kind of way, if that's even correct. It's definitely not a science in the way biology or chemistry are. By that reasoning I'd prefer the philosophy of informatics. Floridi has suggested the philosophy of computing and information but that's cumbersome. There's also philosophy of the digital which tries to cast its net the widest.
- freedomben 9y agoGotta say, I've never ever considered "the Ontology of Programs" or "The Epistemological Status of Computer Science" before. I'm trying to keep an open mind here, but I do wonder if some academics are really stretching to justify the latest grant money.
- fabianhjr 9y ago> Ontology of programs The presuppositions of programs or to program Example: https://arxiv.org/pdf/math/0602053v3.pdf https://arxiv.org/pdf/math/0602053v3.pdf > The epistemological status of computer science Do Neural Nets learn or memorize? What's the difference and how do we know what Neural Nets do? Example: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1706.05394.pdf https://arxiv.org/pdf/1706.05394.pdf
- freedomben 9y agoComparing and contrasting how computers think and learn compared to us certainly is an interesting idea. I tend to think of myself as epistemologically agnostic, but not for lack of trying. I haven't kept up to speed on neural net development, do there could be some fascinating insights there. Thanks for the links. I'll definitely check this out.
- bgibson 9y agoOr one of my personal favorites, the Epistemology of Computer Simulations in Science: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/simulations-science/#EpiComSim https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/simulations-science/#EpiC...
- archgoon 9y agoAre you posting your opinion for Grant money? Or are there other things that motivate people to think about things and express their opinion? There is no need to disparage people who geek out about edge cases in classification systems.
- freedomben 9y agoI don't think I've disparaged anyone here. Being skeptical is one of the oldest traditions in philosophy. If one can't handle skepticism, they are in the wrong field.
- neokantian 9y agoThe really interesting philosophies emerge from the trenches and the battles in the field. For example, the most surprising meta-level insights on randomness come from Nassim Taleb's decade-long experience in trading securities. What he writes, is truly striking. The article in the link, however, make no reference to such real-world starting points. It fails to emerge from the very practical. It does not gradually abstract away details in order to arrive at surprising insights at the meta-level. The verifiable path is simply gone. It is much more an example in the art of mediocre teaching. I personally think that it is a useless read.
- GuiA 9y agoI am completely unfamiliar with Taleb, this is a genuine question - does he have any work that is accepted as academic philosophy? Just hearing coworkers/friends/etc talk about him, I thought he just wrote books for a general audience.
- sjg007 9y agoYes. I mean wikipedia answers it for you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nassim_Nicholas_Taleb https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nassim_Nicholas_Taleb
- GuiA 9y agoThat article provides little to no insight as to how his work has been incorporated within academic philosophy. It does provide a brief "Selection of papers" section, all of them in finance and statistical mechanics, so my original question remains. The answer might be “his work hasn’t really intersected with academic philosophy”, that’s fine, I’m just curious to hear about it from people who have done more than read a Wikipedia page about him.
- ssivark 9y agoI don't think Taleb has engaged with academic philosophers. He prefers to portray himself as someone grounded in empiricism, and talks down "intellectual-yet-idiot" academics who lose the forest for the trees, in loving their flawed simplifications/abstractions more than the reality they are trying to model [1]. A lot of his ire is directed at economists' over-reliance on flawed mathematical assumptions (particularly relating to modeling randomness), and more broadly, academics in the less empirically grounded fields. I take his principal point to be that the modern approach to decision making under uncertainty (due to being neither theoretically nor empirically rigorous) is just a bunch of fashionable nonsense that has displaced several useful traditional/folk thumb rules which might superficially appear to conflict with the modern scientific models, but represent valuable insights won through hard experience. Most of his writing/speaking directed at a general audience is polemical, and often feels like he is ranting, so YMMV. If you're interested in getting a quick flavor of his work, try his talk at the National Science Foundation [2]. FWIW, several of Taleb's key points expound on some statements by Hume [3] and Seneca [4], so he does value certain works/ideas nominally considered philosophy. [1] https://medium.com/incerto/the-intellectual-yet-idiot-13211e2d0577 https://medium.com/incerto/the-intellectual-yet-idiot-13211e... (Taleb shares several of his articles/book-excerpts on Medium) [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omsYJBMoIJU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omsYJBMoIJU [3] https://philosophynow.org/issues/69/Nassim_Nicholas_Taleb https://philosophynow.org/issues/69/Nassim_Nicholas_Taleb [4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4MhC5tcEv0&feature=youtu.be&t=150 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4MhC5tcEv0&feature=youtu.be... PS: Having written this comment on HN makes me feel very weird, stating (my understanding of) the opinions of some particular person, but I just felt like responding to a sincere question.
- dvddgld 9y agoProps to the Stanford Encyclopaedia of Philosophy, it’s perhaps the best general resource on philosophy on the web
- GuiA 9y agoIt’s a great example of what an editorialized online encyclopedia can be. Would love to learn about other such resources for other fields.
- dvddgld 9y agoMe too! If anyone has any fantastic niche web encyclopaedia links, link away!
- nickpsecurity 9y agoGreat article and discussion on it here for anyone trying to build something similar: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10266103 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10266103
- lainon 9y agoNote that there's also the "Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy" which is, such as the SEP, written by professional Philosophers. http://www.iep.utm.edu/ http://www.iep.utm.edu/
- dvddgld 9y agoThey definitely deserve a shout-out too, these two resources happily got me through a couple of undergrad philosophy electives!
- pmoriarty 9y agoThe Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy is definitely a step up from Wikipedia's coverage of philosophy, but it comes from a strong and pretty obvious Analytic point of view. For coverage from other points of view (which arguably give more accurate and informed accounts of non-analytic philosophy), you have to resort to classes or books.
- tjgillies 9y agoPortland State offers PhD in Philosophy of Computer Science https://www.pdx.edu/computer-science/doctor-of-philosophy-in-computer-science https://www.pdx.edu/computer-science/doctor-of-philosophy-in...
- jswrenn 9y agoPhD = Doctor of Philosophy This is just a normal PhD in Computer Science.