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Our microbiome challenges our concept of self
- chair6 9y agoInteresting philosophical questions on how oneself views oneself, especially if you go back to the source paper at http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.2005358 http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/jour... rather than the linked extract. “[W]e have never been individuals...” Microbiome is one of the things we're including in the Arivale program. Early days on the research front, but fascinating stuff - our clinical team have written up two less philosophical, more scientific articles re. correlations of microbiome to health at https://www.arivale.com/gut-microbiome-tmao-heart-heath/ https://www.arivale.com/gut-microbiome-tmao-heart-heath/ and https://www.arivale.com/gut-microbiome-crohns/ https://www.arivale.com/gut-microbiome-crohns/.
- zxcb1 9y agoThe results from this study will probably be interesting: https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/experiments/1010.html https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/experime...
- tritium 9y agoA car is not a car without the human, with the keys to the car, sitting in the driver's seat, in a state ready and capable to operate the vehicle, and in possession of valid paperwork in good-standing, proving that they are legally entitled to operate the vehicle. A car is not a car without the human, with the keys to the car, sitting in the driver's seat, in a state ready and capable to operate the vehicle. A car is not a car without the human, with the keys to the car, sitting in the driver's seat. A car is not a car without a human sitting in the driver's seat. A car is not a car without a human to drive it. A car is not a car without a human inside it. A car is not a car without an animal inside it. A car is not a car without an object inside it. A car is not a car without an engine inside it. A car is not a car without something inside it. A car is not a car without anything inside it. Doesn't hold up. The car remains a car, so long as it is actually a car. If you really want to challenge views about being a human, consider that each of us all have been single celled animals for at least a couple of seconds, if not minutes or hours, of our lives. It didn't stay that way, but it's an incontrovertible fact for every last one of us, and indeed also for lots of other organisms. Plenty of passengers ride the bus, but the bus is not redefined by this.
- narag 9y agoeach of us all have been single celled animals for at least a couple of seconds That seems wrong to me because it conflates different identity concepts. That cell wasn't me, but more like a seed from where I was built. Actually, if I'm not mistaken, identical twins come from a single embrio that gets splitted, so with that reasoning both twins were the same person at one time. I don't think so.
- tritium 9y agoThat's exactly what I mean about proposing a notion that serves as a challenge to a point of view. I was pretty confident I was putting forward a statement that someone would take issue with, even if it's part of a sentiment I buy into. Anyway, the original atoms and molecules of that first cell are long gone, yet here we are. In terms of qualifying one's semblance of self, I think infant amnesia also represents a significant developmental boundary, for "counting" as a self aware human. If you don't remember learning to walk, was it "you" that learned? It's a pretty fluid and blurry line for human existence.
- chair6 9y agoSpeaking of challenges to a point of view: Plenty of passengers ride the bus, but the bus is not redefined by this. Smell, sickness, graffiti, background noise, and even the occasional pleasant conversation.. all things passengers bring to the bus that may not actually redefine it but do potentially have lasting impact on the bus itself and shape the experience for all parties involved.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- posterboy 9y agoThe whole problem is anthropomorphism. There is no bus, there am just I, and the bus is part of my experience. There are no other people, even -- only me and that which looks and behaves similar to me. So I rationalize exterior events as just as involuntary as my own thought. When I rationalize that as free will, I must rationalize other exterior stimuli as expected, wanted and willed, too, but then there is no interior left. Which is a contradiction, so nihilism is the only solution. If that sounds like bollocks, I will still find a way to rationalize that. > Plenty of passengers ride the bus, but the bus is not redefined by this. The busriding-experience is shaped, which is all that matters. How many parts of a ship can you change until it's not the same ship anymore? There never was a ship to begin with. Just a build. Perhaps this is why Americans love the gerund. "building" is a process and an object at the same time. > ... lasting impact on the bus itself and shape the experience for all parties involved This prompted me to answer. I couldn't say it better.
- lobo_tuerto 9y agoI wonder if these new discoveries about the microbiome can explain why on disciplines like Zen meditation (Zazen), one has to focus her mind on a point at the gut level. Could these techniques somehow be aware of the gut-mind connection? https://www.health.harvard.edu/diseases-and-conditions/the-gut-brain-connection https://www.health.harvard.edu/diseases-and-conditions/the-g...
- shripadk 9y agoJust an info: Focusing mind at the gut level is not specific to Zen meditation but is instead part of Yoga Sutras of Patanjali (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoga_Sutras_of_Patanjali https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoga_Sutras_of_Patanjali) from which all these techniques are derived from. Specifically it is focusing on the 7 centres of energy called Chakras. The gut level thing you talk about is called the Manipura in Sanskrit or the Solar Plexus Chakra in English transliteration.
- FullMtlAlcoholc 9y agoI've read that the microbiome can and does influence our sense of taste, altering it in such a way that the foods that certain species of bacteria prefer to metabolize end up tasting better. Although I've anecdotally found this to be true, I think it is commonly accepted that the gut affects the mind whether the conscious self is aware of it or not. A lot of the mindful meditation I've practiced doesn't have the goal of making the mind quiet. Quite the opposite, it is a technique to quiet conscious thinking that takes effort so that one can be more aware of thoughts that seemingly arise out of nowhere...like when you're stuck with a difficult problem only to have a solution pop into your head over the weekend while going out for a run, without any conscious effort
- spiralx 9y agoYour gut contains the second largest collection of neurons in your body, and has a large influence on our behaviour... https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/gut-second-brain/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/gut-second-brain/
- nikolay 9y agoThat's where the concept of soul fits right in. We cannot delineate between "us" and the "environment" either - we constantly lose and acquire molecules from it.
- test6554 9y agoWhether or not your concept of self is challenged depends on your current concept. If you think biology is applied chemistry, and chemistry is applied physics, you're just fine.
- foobar1962 9y agoYou articulated my thoughts perfectly, thanks.
- unclebucknasty 9y agoI think it's useful to draw a distinction between the concept of self and the sense of self. The concept of self refers to the physical being. That's purely a physical consideration: i.e. the physics you mention. OTOH, the sense of self refers to sentience. It's more "who am I?" than "what am I?" For instance, it's what is fractured in dissociative disorders. So, here, you can have your concept of self challenged without your sense of self being affected.
- jm__87 9y agoAre you referring to the difference between the subjective experience of feeling like a "self" vs your knowledge of being a "self" (or the illusion of being a self)? If that is the case, I actually disagree that the experience of being a self would remain unchanged indefinitely if you change your belief of what you are as a self. If you are mindful of your new concept of self, the character of your daily experience will be changed as you reframe your experiences in to your new concept of self. To take this to an extreme, you could practice mindfulness meditation to the point where you lose the experience of a sense of self.
- unclebucknasty 9y agoWell, the first I referenced is just the physical notion of self, more attuned to the article. If I realize that I am x % bacteria, then it may change my perception of that physical self. But, I don't believe that it would, per se, cause me to question my very existence as a self. However, I agree that if I were inclined, then it could certainly be one of any number of factors (including mindfulness meditation or any serious conscious consideration) that prompts me to start thinking about or questioning my "self" as a sentient entity beyond just my physical being. I just don't believe that such an outcome is inevitable or that those two experiences of self necessarily converge. That is, one can certainly question the former without ever considering the latter. In fact, I would wager that most who encounter an article such as this would fall into that category.
- Bartweiss 9y agoWarren Ellis, as usual, is ahead of the curve. One of the most interesting characters in Normal is a (seriously mentally ill) futurist who conceives of her microbiome as a separate entity and talks to it like she suffers from DID. It's a whole book about how a sufficiently-obsessive focus on the future can break your identity, so this is a nice fit.
- FullMtlAlcoholc 9y agoIs this worth reading if I loved Transmetropolitan?
- DanielleMolloy 9y agoI came across some of the microbiome research in the recent years, I know about the hacker culture interest in fermented foods and do drink kefir semi-regularly myself. But there appears to be a quite some correlation between microbiome and, well, diet: https://www.nature.com/articles/nature12820 https://www.nature.com/articles/nature12820 Aparrantly you can change your microbiome rapidly by eating differently. When discovering effects for the whole organism, can’t it be that these are correlations that have been found before in nutrition studies? Why is / isn’t this a problem? Maybe I’m missing something.
- will_brown 9y agoI posted this comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15923695 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15923695) about the microbiome about 2 months that is related, of course I was down voted into oblivion. But essentially my point was that human genes are not determinative and work hand in hand with the microbiome, where an analogy I used (though not my original thought) is that the human (genes) are like a piano and the microbiome is like the player. One of the more interesting studies I have read included identical twins in Africa, where obviously genes are identical, so is environment and diet, yet one twin would be healthy while the other was malnourished. The conclusion was it was the difference in the twins microbiome that was determinative and the cause.
- JoshMnem 9y agoI'm not sure, but it might be the use of the phrase "leaky gut". Some people will have a knee-jerk reaction against that term vs. the term "intestinal permeability".
- danieltillett 9y agoWill you are a lawyer (quite a good lawyer by my estimate), but you should be careful when moving outside of your sphere of competency. Biology is very, very complex. Identical twins are not genetically identical (they typically all have small genetic difference), but even if they were the cause for any difference could be due to factors outside of the microbiome. There is no way any careful scientist could conclude from one set of twins what the cause of any difference between them was. Edit. I apologise for my tone. I am just trying to explain why you got downvoted.
- foobar1962 9y ago>On the contrary, it means that the stakes of the natural sciences exceed the expertise of the natural sciences and reach over into the arts. This makes a close collaboration of the life sciences with the human sciences imperative. Why do new findings like this lead people to conclude that “science needs philosophy” It’s never the philosophers that make the findings. And it’s not like the laws of physics will need to be re-written.
- danieltillett 9y agoTo be generous this sentence could be interpreted as meaning the humanities need to take notice of what science is finding, not the other way around. Unless we metaphorically neutron bomb the humanities and start again nothing science discovers will have any influence on humanities. Edit. Humanities graduates how about engaging rather than knee jerk down voting anything that questions your world view.
- danharaj 9y ago> Humanities graduates how about engaging rather than knee jerk down voting anything that questions your world view I have a degree in mathematics.
- danieltillett 9y agoNot quite the engagement I was looking for :)
- gehwartzen 9y agoScience needs phillosophy as one source of inspiration for new research. Many of humanities greatest scientists were also brilliant philosophers.
- qplex 9y agoThere would be no science without philosophy. The scientific method _is_ philosophy. I think it's very important to retain the ability to postulate above scientifically proven things.
- heisenbit 9y agoThere is a lot of truth in that - the microbiome is a key factor affecting out nutritional intake. It affects how effective we take up energy but also affects us through a multitude of chemicals all influencing the cells in our body. Our health, out intellectual capabilities and our moods depend on it. If the ego is part microbiome and we are consequent then we should have laws that declare antibiotics tools for partitial mass murder or suicide.
- fullstackwebdev 9y agoGMO BT bacteria gets in your gut, kills your flora, releases toxins (pesticides). Your body struggles, serotonin levels decreases. You can't sleep, get depressed. Your doctor prescribes SSRIs. It interferes with your reproductive system and quality of life.
- fullstackwebdev 9y agoYou go online, read a comment on HN that gives you a hint of what happens. It goes against your confirmation bias, you get triggered, you down vote. haha sorry
- seattle_spring 9y agoYou should consider expanding your source of news beyond naturalnews.com.