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The article keeps repeating how America is the "most highly evolved liberal democracy", most advanced / modern country etc. This is simply not true. Many Europ

by dkural 9y ago

The article keeps repeating how America is the "most highly evolved liberal democracy", most advanced / modern country etc. This is simply not true. Many European countries have free / low cost education, including higher education, free healthcare where it is rationed by need as opposed to $, maternal and paternal leave, paid vacations, some have free childcare, access to mental healthcare, decriminalization of drug addiction accompanied with treatment, higher gender and social equality, and more importantly, higher social mobility (since access to education and healthcare is more equal); affordable and high quality public transportation, and walkable cities. Property tax %s are lower in most of Europe as well. Their effective tax rate is lower too, since once you don't need to pay as much for education and healthcare, your take-home pay is higher. You have extra time to sleep, spend with your family and friends, or go out for a walk / read. Your mind doesn't constantly worry about the future of your children or healthcare access due to the social net. This means you're more productive at work and in society. What's described above is the most evolved liberal democracy. Not the white collar rat race we got here, where we worship billionaires and tax cuts for corporations, where it is still a debate if weapons of mass carnage can be sold to children, where the police force murders its own citizens every day on the streets, where politicians are bought and sold to the highest bidder, in the country with the highest incarceration rate in the world.

tomp 9y ago
on the other hand, US has been a democracy for by far the longest. Other European countries pale in comparision, with the possible exception of the UK.
- dkural 9y ago
  If black people don't count, sure. I would argue that the US has not been a full democracy until Civil Rights. Jim Crow laws were in effect until 1965. Also, black people could not exercise their vote, were not allowed to attend university, eat in the same restaurants, or even sit on the same section of the bus. As far as black people were concerned, the US was not a democracy.
  - dkural 9y ago
    Here's an article describing some of this: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2017/07/13/presumption-of-guilt/ http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2017/07/13/presumption-of-gu...
  - Retric 9y ago
    Even then 4 million Americans don't get a vote because they don't live in states. Residents of DC, Puerto Rico, U.S. Virgin Islands, Guam, Northern Mariana Islands and American Samoa all get Taxes without representation. Thus, America is still not an actual Democracy.
    - Jesus_Jones 9y ago
      Those people are free to move to the us, free to petition to join as states. How do you think Hawaii and Alaska did it? I can move to those places. A better argument might be that poor people are actively disenfranchised by people they don't politically support.
      - Retric 9y ago
        These people live inside the United States. This is not some far off land these are people living in our nations capital we are talking about. They simply don't have voting rights due to politics so an area can be part of the United States but not a State.
  - malnourish 9y ago
    Don't forget, the US didn't allow women to vote nationwide until 1920.
  - refurb 9y ago
    I can play this game. You don't have freedom of speech in Germany because there are hate language laws. Thus, it's not a democracy. See how silly that is?
    - amclennon 9y ago
- smackay 9y ago
  I think the good people of Iceland might disagree with that, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Althing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Althing
  - tomp 9y ago
    Interesting, I wasn't aware of Iceland's democratic history! Although admittedly it's far harder to govern 200M people rather than 200k.
meuk 9y ago
It's mostly a matter of perception, but I agree wholeheartedly. While the US is a beautiful, rich, and diverse country, it is hardly developed in many aspects. The education and healthcare is problematic and class-based, and many policies are near-sighted. There is an unhealthy obsession with shallow entertainment. Public opinion matters more than truth. There's no justice if you're not a ultra-rich, companies will just go to court until you're broke. There are only two important political parties - both seem to have some moral issues. In general, Americans don't live very sustainable (gasoline, cars, and tech is really cheap, so why bother?). There is also a weird obsession with race - it's for some reason very common to divide people in races (apparently, you're either black, white, hispanic, or asian and there is nothing in between). While most of the Americans I met work extremely hard and are a joy to be around, I also found them to be quite nationalistic and oblivious to criticism on the USA. Of course, this whole rant is a huge generalization :)
- thisiszilff 9y ago
  A part of it is definitely perception. If this country is so great, why does it have so many problems? As to what distinguishes the US from European countries is probably the lack of continuity and history. One doesn't really feel like an "American" as one might feel "Spanish" or "French." An unfortunate consequence of this lack of unity is that democracy becomes very, very messy, and what might have unified the US--a common set of values, hopes, ideals, etc.--is being chipped away at. On the flip side US culture promotes individualism which sometimes leads people away from unity. With respect to the issue at hand, there's a great quote by David Foster Wallace: “This is so American, man: either make something your god and cosmos and then worship it, or else kill it.” There's a bizarre zeal that's valued in US life and culture (think startup culture) that's great if you find that something to "worship," but if not you're left with this overzealous impulse to do something, something great, something worthy of your time, but you don't have anywhere to direct that energy. It becomes destructive. Europeans have a steadier pace of life that recognizes that 90% of the people aren't going to becomes famous, have amazing carers, be important figures, and that instead of that they can have good, stable, happy lives. In the US, that just doesn't cut it.
kerkeslager 9y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rpn0vh2Rj0Y&t=4m39s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rpn0vh2Rj0Y&t=4m39s
refurb 9y ago
Their effective tax rate is lower too, since once you don't need to pay as much for education and healthcare, your take-home pay is higher. Based on what I've seen this is certainly not true baring a few exceptions.
- meuk 9y ago
  I think the pay is more equal in Europe. I have finished multiple studies and work as a software developer, but I only make about 15% more than a friend who did not finish an academic study and works in logistics. If you're a bartender, Europe is a better place to be ;)
  - nemo44x 9y ago
    As someone who has to figure out what rates to pay people doing the same jobs across Europe and the USA I can say you're probably right. Our European employees make considerably less base salaries in general except for the Swiss employees who make on average typical base salaries as our USA employees.
    - meuk 9y ago
      Swiss people are - almost without exception - filthy rich ;)

by dkural 9y ago

tomp 9y ago

on the other hand, US has been a democracy for by far the longest. Other European countries pale in comparision, with the possible exception of the UK.

dkural 9y ago
If black people don't count, sure. I would argue that the US has not been a full democracy until Civil Rights. Jim Crow laws were in effect until 1965. Also, black people could not exercise their vote, were not allowed to attend university, eat in the same restaurants, or even sit on the same section of the bus. As far as black people were concerned, the US was not a democracy.
- dkural 9y ago
  Here's an article describing some of this: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2017/07/13/presumption-of-guilt/ http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2017/07/13/presumption-of-gu...
- Retric 9y ago
  Even then 4 million Americans don't get a vote because they don't live in states. Residents of DC, Puerto Rico, U.S. Virgin Islands, Guam, Northern Mariana Islands and American Samoa all get Taxes without representation. Thus, America is still not an actual Democracy.
  - Jesus_Jones 9y ago
    Those people are free to move to the us, free to petition to join as states. How do you think Hawaii and Alaska did it? I can move to those places. A better argument might be that poor people are actively disenfranchised by people they don't politically support.
    - Retric 9y ago
      These people live inside the United States. This is not some far off land these are people living in our nations capital we are talking about. They simply don't have voting rights due to politics so an area can be part of the United States but not a State.
- malnourish 9y ago
  Don't forget, the US didn't allow women to vote nationwide until 1920.
- refurb 9y ago
  I can play this game. You don't have freedom of speech in Germany because there are hate language laws. Thus, it's not a democracy. See how silly that is?
  - amclennon 9y ago
smackay 9y ago
I think the good people of Iceland might disagree with that, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Althing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Althing
- tomp 9y ago
  Interesting, I wasn't aware of Iceland's democratic history! Although admittedly it's far harder to govern 200M people rather than 200k.

meuk 9y ago

It's mostly a matter of perception, but I agree wholeheartedly. While the US is a beautiful, rich, and diverse country, it is hardly developed in many aspects. The education and healthcare is problematic and class-based, and many policies are near-sighted. There is an unhealthy obsession with shallow entertainment. Public opinion matters more than truth. There's no justice if you're not a ultra-rich, companies will just go to court until you're broke. There are only two important political parties - both seem to have some moral issues. In general, Americans don't live very sustainable (gasoline, cars, and tech is really cheap, so why bother?). There is also a weird obsession with race - it's for some reason very common to divide people in races (apparently, you're either black, white, hispanic, or asian and there is nothing in between). While most of the Americans I met work extremely hard and are a joy to be around, I also found them to be quite nationalistic and oblivious to criticism on the USA. Of course, this whole rant is a huge generalization :)

thisiszilff 9y ago
A part of it is definitely perception. If this country is so great, why does it have so many problems? As to what distinguishes the US from European countries is probably the lack of continuity and history. One doesn't really feel like an "American" as one might feel "Spanish" or "French." An unfortunate consequence of this lack of unity is that democracy becomes very, very messy, and what might have unified the US--a common set of values, hopes, ideals, etc.--is being chipped away at. On the flip side US culture promotes individualism which sometimes leads people away from unity. With respect to the issue at hand, there's a great quote by David Foster Wallace: “This is so American, man: either make something your god and cosmos and then worship it, or else kill it.” There's a bizarre zeal that's valued in US life and culture (think startup culture) that's great if you find that something to "worship," but if not you're left with this overzealous impulse to do something, something great, something worthy of your time, but you don't have anywhere to direct that energy. It becomes destructive. Europeans have a steadier pace of life that recognizes that 90% of the people aren't going to becomes famous, have amazing carers, be important figures, and that instead of that they can have good, stable, happy lives. In the US, that just doesn't cut it.

kerkeslager 9y ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rpn0vh2Rj0Y&t=4m39s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rpn0vh2Rj0Y&t=4m39s

refurb 9y ago

Their effective tax rate is lower too, since once you don't need to pay as much for education and healthcare, your take-home pay is higher. Based on what I've seen this is certainly not true baring a few exceptions.

meuk 9y ago
I think the pay is more equal in Europe. I have finished multiple studies and work as a software developer, but I only make about 15% more than a friend who did not finish an academic study and works in logistics. If you're a bartender, Europe is a better place to be ;)
- nemo44x 9y ago
  As someone who has to figure out what rates to pay people doing the same jobs across Europe and the USA I can say you're probably right. Our European employees make considerably less base salaries in general except for the Swiss employees who make on average typical base salaries as our USA employees.
  - meuk 9y ago
    Swiss people are - almost without exception - filthy rich ;)