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This comes at, I think, a critical point for me. In short, I spent four years at a community college (completing my associate degree in CS and exhausting almost

This comes at, I think, a critical point for me. In short, I spent four years at a community college (completing my associate degree in CS and exhausting almost all the courses I found interesting i.e. Mysticism, Writing Short Fiction, etc), and now in the fall I'm planning to attend San Francisco State University for CS. A few old high school friends, who attend Berkeley (one just graduated and is starting work in finance in SF in the summer, the other is a junior studying for med school), tell me I ought to stay another year at community college and apply to better, top-tier schools in the fall. Their argument? While college, as you mentioned, has become just a pursuit for "paper credentials for a specialized position you want", they insist that the school you graduate from plays a crucial role and there is numerous benefits which out-do the benefits of attending a low-tier school. So here's a cliche question: What do you think I should do? It seems the obvious answer, given what you said and what other commenters have said, is just finish the degree, it doesn't matter what school you attend. I suppose I'm just trying to get a bit of perspective. If it helps any, here's a brief background: first-generation student, immigrant from Mexico, parents combined make roughly 31k in a house of 6 (I have three sisters), and we live in California. Truthfully, I would just like to get my degree already and start hacking away (also: helping my parents financially, etc). I obviously do hack away now, but courses and part-time work usually take up most of my time, that I can't give attention to all the interesting and fascinating things out there to learn, build, etc, i.e. I have a spreadsheet of links to new technologies, blog posts, etc, that I would like to learn and build stuff with. So here's my plan: hack away this summer -> attend school in the fall -> study, work part-time, etc -> summer internship -> study, work part-time, etc, -> graduate -> summer internship -> entry-level job somewhere hopefully.

skookumchuck 9y ago
Whatever school you choose to attend, take the hard courses in your major. That's where the best professors will be, and the best students, and hence your best opportunity to learn the most.
leetcrew 9y ago
only you can decide, but since you asked, I will give you my input. a bachelor's degree helps a lot to get pretty much any white-collar, entry-level job. in some fields it's barely enough, but in ours, having a BS with a decent GPA and a couple internships basically guarantees you a job. you might not be able to work at FAANG type companies, but someone will definitely be willing to compensate you well for your work. a degree from a prestigious school is better than a degree from most state schools, but if it takes you another year or two to start collecting that salary and build real work experience, it could ultimately be a wash. sounds like you already know what path you want to take, and I bet it will work out just fine.
throwaway0255 9y ago
When I mentioned government-mandated credentials, I was thinking more of the medical and legal fields. Software engineering is ideal in this respect, because it's pretty much unregulated in that regard. That makes software engineering an ideal choice for people not going to college at all. But since you're already 4 years in, you might as well finish. So definitely finish. Outside of credentialism, there's still the other reason, and I think this is the one motivating the advice you're getting from your friends: > to compete for a higher position in the social hierarchy You'll be more effective at this if you wait and go to the higher-status university. From your current position, I'd definitely recommend finishing your degree, and since we've already optimized for status, I think I would wait and go to the university with the more fashionable brand if that option is available to you. Top companies write a lot about how they've found no correlation between university ranking and job performance, but then they continue spending millions on job fairs and hiring mostly people out of top universities. Your friends are right that many companies, especially big ones, will treat you very differently depending on which of these two schools you choose. Good luck.
- evoloution 9y ago
  This, finish and go to the best Uni you can; everything else that anyone tells you may not serve you well. Although throwaway0255 is making an argument about whether you could achieve better education by yourself vs. an organized university curriculum, you should never overlook the effect that a degree from a prestigious University can have. In most fields companies hire people from the highest ranked Universities, when there is a recession they still hire those ones even if they hire fewer people in total. Money and time spent in a top-tier University always pays off either by prestige, connections or just by the network that you build there. That is how US works currently, top Unis are becoming the tool of class formation. Plus while in Uni you can still do what you want if your part time jobs are not very demanding. Finally, for most people with not enough fu money, this is the last time to really experiment without putting their livelihoods on the line.
  - pharke 9y ago
    > Unis are becoming the tool of class formation I'd argue they've already been that for at least several years if not, less brazenly, for a few decades and that the article these comments are in response to is strong evidence to support that determination. The network effects generated by adding people to your social circle from a group that are at the same career stage and aiming to work in the same industry are also very strong. It is highly likely that they will be the source of job opportunities, recommendations, and useful advice for many years to come. None of this is really necessary, there are plenty of positions out there that don't receive applicants hailing from top tier universities and making friends with people in your field only requires a modicum of grace and the willingness to put the time in at the appropriate events. Generally, I agree with the sentiment that the position that universities currently hold is ripe for replacement. The second that someone figures out a workable model that serves most of the important functions (accreditation, education, networking, access to experts, research funding) for a reasonable price the die will be cast.
forapurpose 9y ago
> While college, as you mentioned, has become just a pursuit for "paper credentials for a specialized position you want ... You are going to cost yourself a lifetime of benefit if you make a decision based on these Internet rants of the moment; in 10 years they will be forgotten and you will be stuck with the consequences. One thing you learn with a real education is how to evaluate serious ideas and separate them from trendy memes. College is so much more beneficial and fulfilling than the quote above, in almost every aspect of life. If you love to learn, there is no better place - no place else will a professor guide your study, advise you, answer your questions, and give you feedback in any subject you like, or will you have a room full of peers studying and discussing the same thing, or will you have the resources - from labs to reference librarians. It will transform you as a person. > What do you think I should do? Don't rely people on Internet bulletin boards for serious advice! EDIT: I'm not in any way trying to tell you what to do; that's your business, and it depends on things I couldn't possibly know from even 100 HN posts. I'm just saying don't base your decision on trendy ideas and Internet advice. Also, to address a specific question, degrees from better schools absolutely provide you with better opportunities. Many organizations restrict hiring to only certain schools, and the people you befriend will provide better opportunities in the future. Steve Ballmer became CEO of Microsoft because he knew Bill Gates at Harvard. Note that you can always go to a better graduate school too. If you don't know that, take it as s sign that you have a lot of research in front of you. Good luck!
- bernardino 9y ago
  Well said, and thank you. What you said reminds me a lot of the first few pages in the first chapter, The Function of Education, from Krishnamurti's Think On These Things - a good read.
  - talmand 9y ago
    While the comment is generally true, just hope that the college of your choice agrees with the notion. I would research the colleges in consideration to make sure they could fulfill such ideals.
throwawayjava 9y ago
> they insist that the school you graduate from plays a crucial role and there is numerous benefits which out-do the benefits of attending a low-tier school In the case of Berkeley and a few others, they are absolutely correct. I've seen both sides of the unknown school / huge name brand divide. It matters. A lot. It shouldn't, it's a shame, but it does. In CS, you will turn out just fine either way. But it does matter.
amorphid 9y ago
I'm in San Francisco. When you decide to start looking for work, let me know. I can (in my own mind) teach you all the buttons to push to get employers excited about hiring you. It helps to be competent, too :)
ghufran_syed 9y ago
If you want to start working, and have the skills to do it, just start working! You could finish your entire cs degree part-time for less than the cost of one semester at Berkeley, via university of London (https://london.ac.uk/courses/computing-and-information-systems https://london.ac.uk/courses/computing-and-information-syste...) My daughter did this, started working at the age of 19 as a software developer, and is finishing her degree part-time. She should graduate when she’s 24, by which time she’ll have 5 years full-time experience (and five years of earning a salary) Feel free to message me if you have any questions. EDIT: we are in the Bay Area too btw. And the above would NOT apply if, for example, you wanted to go on and do a PhD.
- heedlessly2 9y ago
  i don't know about the UK, but i know in the United States that "Computer and Information Systems" isn't as marketable as "Computer Science". Since most major tech companies know that CIS is for those who can't handle data structures and algorithms. But hopefully her 5 years as a dev could counteract that. If she switched to CS, then that would be a lot better
  - ghufran_syed 9y ago
    More importantly, every “major tech company” uses technical interviews to assess for that knowledge, so those companies seem less convinced of the value of a degree called “computer science” vs one called “computing and information systems” than you are. So it seems unlikely that would be a problem assuming the degree actually covers data structures, algorithms, etc - which it does. I actually agree with you that all other things being equal, it would be better to do a CS degree in the US - if Georgia tech did an undergrad CS degree for $8000, that would probably be a slightly better option. But they don’t, so paying $20000 which is the cheapest online CS bachelors degree I found in the US is not worth it vs the University of London for $8000 total (around $2700 per year for 3 years) It’s also hard to argue that would be a major issue for someone who got their first software developer job without any degree at all :) So the real issue is can you get that first job without a computing degree? I certainly think you can, and for most people, the extra time and cost of a degree, and opportunity cost (ie not earning a paycheck) is not worth it - if you live in the Bay Area. I’m sure it would be much harder, but not impossible to get that first job elsewhere in the US or in the UK without a degree.

skookumchuck 9y ago

Whatever school you choose to attend, take the hard courses in your major. That's where the best professors will be, and the best students, and hence your best opportunity to learn the most.

leetcrew 9y ago

only you can decide, but since you asked, I will give you my input. a bachelor's degree helps a lot to get pretty much any white-collar, entry-level job. in some fields it's barely enough, but in ours, having a BS with a decent GPA and a couple internships basically guarantees you a job. you might not be able to work at FAANG type companies, but someone will definitely be willing to compensate you well for your work. a degree from a prestigious school is better than a degree from most state schools, but if it takes you another year or two to start collecting that salary and build real work experience, it could ultimately be a wash. sounds like you already know what path you want to take, and I bet it will work out just fine.

throwaway0255 9y ago

When I mentioned government-mandated credentials, I was thinking more of the medical and legal fields. Software engineering is ideal in this respect, because it's pretty much unregulated in that regard. That makes software engineering an ideal choice for people not going to college at all. But since you're already 4 years in, you might as well finish. So definitely finish. Outside of credentialism, there's still the other reason, and I think this is the one motivating the advice you're getting from your friends: > to compete for a higher position in the social hierarchy You'll be more effective at this if you wait and go to the higher-status university. From your current position, I'd definitely recommend finishing your degree, and since we've already optimized for status, I think I would wait and go to the university with the more fashionable brand if that option is available to you. Top companies write a lot about how they've found no correlation between university ranking and job performance, but then they continue spending millions on job fairs and hiring mostly people out of top universities. Your friends are right that many companies, especially big ones, will treat you very differently depending on which of these two schools you choose. Good luck.

evoloution 9y ago
This, finish and go to the best Uni you can; everything else that anyone tells you may not serve you well. Although throwaway0255 is making an argument about whether you could achieve better education by yourself vs. an organized university curriculum, you should never overlook the effect that a degree from a prestigious University can have. In most fields companies hire people from the highest ranked Universities, when there is a recession they still hire those ones even if they hire fewer people in total. Money and time spent in a top-tier University always pays off either by prestige, connections or just by the network that you build there. That is how US works currently, top Unis are becoming the tool of class formation. Plus while in Uni you can still do what you want if your part time jobs are not very demanding. Finally, for most people with not enough fu money, this is the last time to really experiment without putting their livelihoods on the line.
- pharke 9y ago
  > Unis are becoming the tool of class formation I'd argue they've already been that for at least several years if not, less brazenly, for a few decades and that the article these comments are in response to is strong evidence to support that determination. The network effects generated by adding people to your social circle from a group that are at the same career stage and aiming to work in the same industry are also very strong. It is highly likely that they will be the source of job opportunities, recommendations, and useful advice for many years to come. None of this is really necessary, there are plenty of positions out there that don't receive applicants hailing from top tier universities and making friends with people in your field only requires a modicum of grace and the willingness to put the time in at the appropriate events. Generally, I agree with the sentiment that the position that universities currently hold is ripe for replacement. The second that someone figures out a workable model that serves most of the important functions (accreditation, education, networking, access to experts, research funding) for a reasonable price the die will be cast.

forapurpose 9y ago

> While college, as you mentioned, has become just a pursuit for "paper credentials for a specialized position you want ... You are going to cost yourself a lifetime of benefit if you make a decision based on these Internet rants of the moment; in 10 years they will be forgotten and you will be stuck with the consequences. One thing you learn with a real education is how to evaluate serious ideas and separate them from trendy memes. College is so much more beneficial and fulfilling than the quote above, in almost every aspect of life. If you love to learn, there is no better place - no place else will a professor guide your study, advise you, answer your questions, and give you feedback in any subject you like, or will you have a room full of peers studying and discussing the same thing, or will you have the resources - from labs to reference librarians. It will transform you as a person. > What do you think I should do? Don't rely people on Internet bulletin boards for serious advice! EDIT: I'm not in any way trying to tell you what to do; that's your business, and it depends on things I couldn't possibly know from even 100 HN posts. I'm just saying don't base your decision on trendy ideas and Internet advice. Also, to address a specific question, degrees from better schools absolutely provide you with better opportunities. Many organizations restrict hiring to only certain schools, and the people you befriend will provide better opportunities in the future. Steve Ballmer became CEO of Microsoft because he knew Bill Gates at Harvard. Note that you can always go to a better graduate school too. If you don't know that, take it as s sign that you have a lot of research in front of you. Good luck!

bernardino 9y ago
Well said, and thank you. What you said reminds me a lot of the first few pages in the first chapter, The Function of Education, from Krishnamurti's Think On These Things - a good read.
- talmand 9y ago
  While the comment is generally true, just hope that the college of your choice agrees with the notion. I would research the colleges in consideration to make sure they could fulfill such ideals.

throwawayjava 9y ago

> they insist that the school you graduate from plays a crucial role and there is numerous benefits which out-do the benefits of attending a low-tier school In the case of Berkeley and a few others, they are absolutely correct. I've seen both sides of the unknown school / huge name brand divide. It matters. A lot. It shouldn't, it's a shame, but it does. In CS, you will turn out just fine either way. But it does matter.

amorphid 9y ago

I'm in San Francisco. When you decide to start looking for work, let me know. I can (in my own mind) teach you all the buttons to push to get employers excited about hiring you. It helps to be competent, too :)

ghufran_syed 9y ago

If you want to start working, and have the skills to do it, just start working! You could finish your entire cs degree part-time for less than the cost of one semester at Berkeley, via university of London (https://london.ac.uk/courses/computing-and-information-systems https://london.ac.uk/courses/computing-and-information-syste...) My daughter did this, started working at the age of 19 as a software developer, and is finishing her degree part-time. She should graduate when she’s 24, by which time she’ll have 5 years full-time experience (and five years of earning a salary) Feel free to message me if you have any questions. EDIT: we are in the Bay Area too btw. And the above would NOT apply if, for example, you wanted to go on and do a PhD.

heedlessly2 9y ago
i don't know about the UK, but i know in the United States that "Computer and Information Systems" isn't as marketable as "Computer Science". Since most major tech companies know that CIS is for those who can't handle data structures and algorithms. But hopefully her 5 years as a dev could counteract that. If she switched to CS, then that would be a lot better
- ghufran_syed 9y ago
  More importantly, every “major tech company” uses technical interviews to assess for that knowledge, so those companies seem less convinced of the value of a degree called “computer science” vs one called “computing and information systems” than you are. So it seems unlikely that would be a problem assuming the degree actually covers data structures, algorithms, etc - which it does. I actually agree with you that all other things being equal, it would be better to do a CS degree in the US - if Georgia tech did an undergrad CS degree for $8000, that would probably be a slightly better option. But they don’t, so paying $20000 which is the cheapest online CS bachelors degree I found in the US is not worth it vs the University of London for $8000 total (around $2700 per year for 3 years) It’s also hard to argue that would be a major issue for someone who got their first software developer job without any degree at all :) So the real issue is can you get that first job without a computing degree? I certainly think you can, and for most people, the extra time and cost of a degree, and opportunity cost (ie not earning a paycheck) is not worth it - if you live in the Bay Area. I’m sure it would be much harder, but not impossible to get that first job elsewhere in the US or in the UK without a degree.