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On the other hand, I come from a rural area and I feel that college was absolutely worth it for me, even with the huge bill that I had to pay myself. (I graduat

On the other hand, I come from a rural area and I feel that college was absolutely worth it for me, even with the huge bill that I had to pay myself. (I graduated fairly recently) College was the first time in my life when I feel like I truly took responsibility for myself, and people generally thought I was a responsible kid growing up. I finally found myself in a place where I could make friends who shared interests with me who I truly wanted to interact with, and many of those friendships evolved into mentors or mentees. TAing, challenging classwork, and living for the first time on my own really forced me to mature and take charge of my future. Of course, I could just be a late bloomer, or maybe my STEM interests and particular rural community made my situation unique. But I don't think I'm the only one in my generation who feels this way. I agree that college is probably not appropriate for your average kid, but for the kind of kids who enjoy learning, who aspire to do something challenging for a career, I think higher learning is indispensable. It's important to keep in mind that college is meant to enrich people as individuals, not explicitly prepare them for jobs. Technical/vocational schools are for job prep.

throwaway0255 9y ago
> It's important to keep in mind that college is meant to enrich people as individuals, not explicitly prepare them for jobs. Technical/vocational schools are for job prep. The more college is shown to be failing the job market, the more I hear this argument. Are people who don't go to college less enriched individuals? Lately, academics seem to be shifting their value proposition to the instillation of this undetectable unmeasurable X-factor. We can't see it, we can't prove that it exists, but it's there, and its value is absolutely incalculable. How convenient for the sales pitch is this. And I don't blame them. As knowledge and skills become accessible to everyone, that's the last defense they'll be left with. What else are they going to say? Our institution is completely out of touch with the job market and the economic realities of our nation, and this was all a complete waste of time? Also, a lot of arguments in favor of college make the mistake of comparing it to nothing, and I think this argument is guilty of that. I'll admit that college compares favorably to doing nothing, but people who skip college aren't just sitting alone in a room staring at a white wall while you're in your lectures. They have 1 year of life experiences for every 1 year of yours. Whatever it means to be an enriched individual, people who don't go to college can be just as enriched. They can go live on their own too. They can take on responsibility, take on challenging work, have relationships, and most of them do. College was your path there and it worked well for you, and that's great. But I also agree with you that it's not ideal for everybody (or even for most people).
- leetcrew 9y ago
  the idea that literally everyone should go / would benefit from going to college is definitely wrong and harmful, but there are some special things about college for those who take advantage. college is probably the only time in your life that an entire team of domain experts will be obligated to take time out of their day to meet with you and answer your questions, however silly or low-level they may be. as a professor, college is one of the only places where you can get paid to work on things that not only have no near-term value, but likely will never have any practical value at all! (I guess this could also be an argument against college...) I do think there is a problem with the way people understand college. outside of a couple majors (ie computer science), college should really be considered something like a luxury good. it isn't economic in the sense of dollars, cents, and balance sheets, but something that has it's own intrinsic value for those who take advantage of it (a distinct minority of undergrad students). disclaimer: I think I am one of these people who college is mostly wasted on. I don't go to office hours, participate in clubs, or really do anything other than really good work on programming assignments and cramming for exams. I'm mostly in it for the piece of paper.
  - jacobolus 9y ago
    > not only have no near-term value, but likely will never have any practical value at all! Not coincidentally, most of the most powerful world-altering ideas (the type that spawn trillions of dollars of new previously unconsidered industries, lead to new communication mediums, cause or prevent wars, topple governments, or set the terms of future laws) come out of work done at colleges or other publicly funded research institutions, often considered at the time to be of no practical value. There are whole fields of study which serve as society-wide multipliers but each individual tiny advance is not worth it to any particular company to hire someone to spend their whole career studying.
  - TheCoelacanth 9y ago
    A lot of the value of college comes from signalling rather than what you actually learn in college. The problem is that, at least on an individual basis, signalling is economically rational, so it is going to be very hard to get people to stop doing it.
PhasmaFelis 9y ago
> It's important to keep in mind that college is meant to enrich people as individuals, not explicitly prepare them for jobs. Technical/vocational schools are for job prep. I'm fine with this as a concept, except that colleges routinely present themselves as job prep, and many employers follow suit.
zbentley 9y ago
> It's important to keep in mind that college is meant to enrich people as individuals, not explicitly prepare them for jobs. This is false. This claim ("colleges are for enrichment and learning; not preparation for a job!") is being trotted out a lot more recently. I consider it to be a pivot equivalent to the Bitcoin Bros' (LLC) pivot from "clearly this will replace currency" to "clearly it has been a store of value all along". Job preparation/income/career enhancement has always been a huge part of the motivation to go to college. Even as many colleges have marketed themselves as "we're not just job prep; come here for the joy of learning", they have also spent huge amounts of resources on making their graduates competitive in the job market. Note that I don't think that expenditure necessarily paid off/was sufficient, just that career preparation is definitely a huge priority for colleges and people who attend them.
- SolaceQuantum 9y ago
  Historically college was never meant to bbe a job prep place. Colleges were originally created to generally well rounded businesspeople for wealthier families. This is why “liberal arts” exist and range from literature to biology and basic mathematics. I went to college 6 years ago and I was still told freshman year that if you’re here exclusively for a job there are better opportunities elsewhere.
mattferderer 9y ago
> It's important to keep in mind that college is meant to enrich people as individuals, not explicitly prepare them for jobs. This should be highlighted. I believe college is a great luxury. Is it necessary? No. Can you learn job requirements faster elsewhere? Yes. I wish K-12 were more like college in the sense that you have some guidelines but otherwise you're basically in a large library. You get to run around & try learning different things that interest you for a few years. It makes you more well rounded as an individual. This is something few people appreciate at a young age. I didn't fully appreciate it until I was older but I did enjoy the diverse opportunities at the time.
tonyedgecombe 9y ago
College was the first time in my life when I feel like I truly took responsibility for myself I often here this but I'm somewhat sceptical. I'm not saying you didn't turn into and adult, rather that you would have done that whether you went to college or not.
- emodendroket 9y ago
  Sure, but I probably would have been a different one with very different ideas.
- vanilla_nut 9y ago
  Very true. Unfortunately, my options were "mature and learn at college" or "work a minimum wage job in rural America" after high school graduation, and given my years of experience at that point with minimum wage jobs and rural America (since I couldn't afford to move away from my parents), the choice was very clear. I spent that time at college maturing and learning, and now I work a very rewarding, intellectually stimulating job in software. In a climate where nobody knows how to code and education is not highly valued, I would never have picked up programming or computer science and ended up where I am now if I hadn't gone to college. I'm very glad to be earning decent money and living in an big city (personal preference, admittedly) instead of working minimum wage food service or manual labor.

throwaway0255 9y ago

> It's important to keep in mind that college is meant to enrich people as individuals, not explicitly prepare them for jobs. Technical/vocational schools are for job prep. The more college is shown to be failing the job market, the more I hear this argument. Are people who don't go to college less enriched individuals? Lately, academics seem to be shifting their value proposition to the instillation of this undetectable unmeasurable X-factor. We can't see it, we can't prove that it exists, but it's there, and its value is absolutely incalculable. How convenient for the sales pitch is this. And I don't blame them. As knowledge and skills become accessible to everyone, that's the last defense they'll be left with. What else are they going to say? Our institution is completely out of touch with the job market and the economic realities of our nation, and this was all a complete waste of time? Also, a lot of arguments in favor of college make the mistake of comparing it to nothing, and I think this argument is guilty of that. I'll admit that college compares favorably to doing nothing, but people who skip college aren't just sitting alone in a room staring at a white wall while you're in your lectures. They have 1 year of life experiences for every 1 year of yours. Whatever it means to be an enriched individual, people who don't go to college can be just as enriched. They can go live on their own too. They can take on responsibility, take on challenging work, have relationships, and most of them do. College was your path there and it worked well for you, and that's great. But I also agree with you that it's not ideal for everybody (or even for most people).

leetcrew 9y ago
the idea that literally everyone should go / would benefit from going to college is definitely wrong and harmful, but there are some special things about college for those who take advantage. college is probably the only time in your life that an entire team of domain experts will be obligated to take time out of their day to meet with you and answer your questions, however silly or low-level they may be. as a professor, college is one of the only places where you can get paid to work on things that not only have no near-term value, but likely will never have any practical value at all! (I guess this could also be an argument against college...) I do think there is a problem with the way people understand college. outside of a couple majors (ie computer science), college should really be considered something like a luxury good. it isn't economic in the sense of dollars, cents, and balance sheets, but something that has it's own intrinsic value for those who take advantage of it (a distinct minority of undergrad students). disclaimer: I think I am one of these people who college is mostly wasted on. I don't go to office hours, participate in clubs, or really do anything other than really good work on programming assignments and cramming for exams. I'm mostly in it for the piece of paper.
- jacobolus 9y ago
  > not only have no near-term value, but likely will never have any practical value at all! Not coincidentally, most of the most powerful world-altering ideas (the type that spawn trillions of dollars of new previously unconsidered industries, lead to new communication mediums, cause or prevent wars, topple governments, or set the terms of future laws) come out of work done at colleges or other publicly funded research institutions, often considered at the time to be of no practical value. There are whole fields of study which serve as society-wide multipliers but each individual tiny advance is not worth it to any particular company to hire someone to spend their whole career studying.
- TheCoelacanth 9y ago
  A lot of the value of college comes from signalling rather than what you actually learn in college. The problem is that, at least on an individual basis, signalling is economically rational, so it is going to be very hard to get people to stop doing it.

PhasmaFelis 9y ago

> It's important to keep in mind that college is meant to enrich people as individuals, not explicitly prepare them for jobs. Technical/vocational schools are for job prep. I'm fine with this as a concept, except that colleges routinely present themselves as job prep, and many employers follow suit.

zbentley 9y ago

> It's important to keep in mind that college is meant to enrich people as individuals, not explicitly prepare them for jobs. This is false. This claim ("colleges are for enrichment and learning; not preparation for a job!") is being trotted out a lot more recently. I consider it to be a pivot equivalent to the Bitcoin Bros' (LLC) pivot from "clearly this will replace currency" to "clearly it has been a store of value all along". Job preparation/income/career enhancement has always been a huge part of the motivation to go to college. Even as many colleges have marketed themselves as "we're not just job prep; come here for the joy of learning", they have also spent huge amounts of resources on making their graduates competitive in the job market. Note that I don't think that expenditure necessarily paid off/was sufficient, just that career preparation is definitely a huge priority for colleges and people who attend them.

SolaceQuantum 9y ago
Historically college was never meant to bbe a job prep place. Colleges were originally created to generally well rounded businesspeople for wealthier families. This is why “liberal arts” exist and range from literature to biology and basic mathematics. I went to college 6 years ago and I was still told freshman year that if you’re here exclusively for a job there are better opportunities elsewhere.

mattferderer 9y ago

> It's important to keep in mind that college is meant to enrich people as individuals, not explicitly prepare them for jobs. This should be highlighted. I believe college is a great luxury. Is it necessary? No. Can you learn job requirements faster elsewhere? Yes. I wish K-12 were more like college in the sense that you have some guidelines but otherwise you're basically in a large library. You get to run around & try learning different things that interest you for a few years. It makes you more well rounded as an individual. This is something few people appreciate at a young age. I didn't fully appreciate it until I was older but I did enjoy the diverse opportunities at the time.

tonyedgecombe 9y ago

College was the first time in my life when I feel like I truly took responsibility for myself I often here this but I'm somewhat sceptical. I'm not saying you didn't turn into and adult, rather that you would have done that whether you went to college or not.

emodendroket 9y ago
Sure, but I probably would have been a different one with very different ideas.
vanilla_nut 9y ago
Very true. Unfortunately, my options were "mature and learn at college" or "work a minimum wage job in rural America" after high school graduation, and given my years of experience at that point with minimum wage jobs and rural America (since I couldn't afford to move away from my parents), the choice was very clear. I spent that time at college maturing and learning, and now I work a very rewarding, intellectually stimulating job in software. In a climate where nobody knows how to code and education is not highly valued, I would never have picked up programming or computer science and ended up where I am now if I hadn't gone to college. I'm very glad to be earning decent money and living in an big city (personal preference, admittedly) instead of working minimum wage food service or manual labor.