18 ms·

USA was country of immigrants, and still is. Should newcomers carry same baggage of language? Should they be shamed for using these words?

ggm 9y ago
How do newcomers acquire the use of these words? If we shift to one side slightly, how do lebanese arrivals learn to laugh at Polack jokes? What moment says its ok to laugh at those crazy poles, call them polacks, and have to sit by while the other guy tells jokes about rag-heads from the middle east? its a perpetuating hell. the only path out (I feel, but possibly wrongly) is to break the cycle.
- fapjacks 9y ago
  I don't think we'll be able to break the cycle until we encounter aliens and there's a whole new spectrum to use as a measuring stick to label outsiders. The cycle persists because of how different the outsiders are compared to "us" insiders. The human animal is like many animals, matching patterns in past experience and applying labels to those patterns in order to survive. Religion and superstition are fine examples of this behavior. As is racism and classism and politics, etc. I don't think this will change unless the pattern-matching, label-applying biology/behavior is eliminated, e.g. the human animal is changed into something that isn't human, or through semantics, e.g. unless the human animal is presented with something so extraordinary and counter to the status quo that the definitions are changed.
- hippich 9y ago
  In ex-USSR at least, and, I bet, in many spanish speaking countries, word "negr" or "negros" refers to any dark-skinned person without any baggage of slavery, diminishing mental capabilities or anything like that. (Word "nigger" is not really used in ex-USSR except may be some teen groups who listen too much to rap music, and still does not carry same baggage) Why these immigrants should be shamed for use of these words, why some should be offended by words? Intent should matter. And if bad intent is not there - there should be no judgement. That how empathy works both ways.
  - mirimir 9y ago
    I get strange looks sometimes, when I say that I like the Norwegian deathpunk group Turbonegro. And then there are those Texan punk groups with names that I self-censor.
classicsnoot 9y ago
Every country is made up of immigrants. Stating this brings nothing to the table. Language is an enormous part of culture and social interaction. It is incumbent upon the people that relocate to a region, country, or community to adapt to those that are already there, particularly if there is a thriving and productive community in place. It would be completely unfair if a bunch of Liberal Americans who are fed up with Trump moved to a small East Asian country and expected them to put English on all the signs just because they were fleeing a political faction they abhorred. This is not a right v. wrong situation; there is a logical process to the civil redistribution of population. If it is not civil (be it desperation ((Syria)), enforced ((German speakers after WWII)), or appropriative ((Europeans in North America))) then this point is moot, but in the 21st century we cannot act like people just accidentally end up in more economically beneficial areas.
- stcredzero 9y ago
  It would be completely unfair if a bunch of Liberal Americans who are fed up with Trump moved to a small East Asian country and expected them to put English on all the signs just because they were fleeing a political faction they abhorred. Somehow, various Chinatowns in the US seem to do alright, even though many of them have signs in Chinese. There is an amazing amount of wealth generated there, though there's also often a greater degree of squalor. (One exception is Houston's Bellaire, though there may be seedier parts of that I'm not familiar with.)
- hippich 9y ago
  I think USA is much more `immigrantish` than many other countries. Compare USA to Japan for example. Of course it is expected that most immigrants adopt most of cultural aspects of the new life, but not all of it. And each immigrant brings part of his cultural heritage too. So culture will change over time. Accordingly to this - https://www.migrationpolicy.org/programs/data-hub/charts/immigrant-population-over-time https://www.migrationpolicy.org/programs/data-hub/charts/imm... - immigrants are close to 15% of total population. This chart also does not mention number of children of these immigrants. These are people who do not have this inherited and ingrained guilt for enslavement simply because they did not live here when that was happening, nor their ancestors to tell them stories.

ggm 9y ago

How do newcomers acquire the use of these words? If we shift to one side slightly, how do lebanese arrivals learn to laugh at Polack jokes? What moment says its ok to laugh at those crazy poles, call them polacks, and have to sit by while the other guy tells jokes about rag-heads from the middle east? its a perpetuating hell. the only path out (I feel, but possibly wrongly) is to break the cycle.

fapjacks 9y ago
I don't think we'll be able to break the cycle until we encounter aliens and there's a whole new spectrum to use as a measuring stick to label outsiders. The cycle persists because of how different the outsiders are compared to "us" insiders. The human animal is like many animals, matching patterns in past experience and applying labels to those patterns in order to survive. Religion and superstition are fine examples of this behavior. As is racism and classism and politics, etc. I don't think this will change unless the pattern-matching, label-applying biology/behavior is eliminated, e.g. the human animal is changed into something that isn't human, or through semantics, e.g. unless the human animal is presented with something so extraordinary and counter to the status quo that the definitions are changed.
hippich 9y ago
In ex-USSR at least, and, I bet, in many spanish speaking countries, word "negr" or "negros" refers to any dark-skinned person without any baggage of slavery, diminishing mental capabilities or anything like that. (Word "nigger" is not really used in ex-USSR except may be some teen groups who listen too much to rap music, and still does not carry same baggage) Why these immigrants should be shamed for use of these words, why some should be offended by words? Intent should matter. And if bad intent is not there - there should be no judgement. That how empathy works both ways.
- mirimir 9y ago
  I get strange looks sometimes, when I say that I like the Norwegian deathpunk group Turbonegro. And then there are those Texan punk groups with names that I self-censor.

classicsnoot 9y ago

Every country is made up of immigrants. Stating this brings nothing to the table. Language is an enormous part of culture and social interaction. It is incumbent upon the people that relocate to a region, country, or community to adapt to those that are already there, particularly if there is a thriving and productive community in place. It would be completely unfair if a bunch of Liberal Americans who are fed up with Trump moved to a small East Asian country and expected them to put English on all the signs just because they were fleeing a political faction they abhorred. This is not a right v. wrong situation; there is a logical process to the civil redistribution of population. If it is not civil (be it desperation ((Syria)), enforced ((German speakers after WWII)), or appropriative ((Europeans in North America))) then this point is moot, but in the 21st century we cannot act like people just accidentally end up in more economically beneficial areas.

stcredzero 9y ago
It would be completely unfair if a bunch of Liberal Americans who are fed up with Trump moved to a small East Asian country and expected them to put English on all the signs just because they were fleeing a political faction they abhorred. Somehow, various Chinatowns in the US seem to do alright, even though many of them have signs in Chinese. There is an amazing amount of wealth generated there, though there's also often a greater degree of squalor. (One exception is Houston's Bellaire, though there may be seedier parts of that I'm not familiar with.)
hippich 9y ago
I think USA is much more `immigrantish` than many other countries. Compare USA to Japan for example. Of course it is expected that most immigrants adopt most of cultural aspects of the new life, but not all of it. And each immigrant brings part of his cultural heritage too. So culture will change over time. Accordingly to this - https://www.migrationpolicy.org/programs/data-hub/charts/immigrant-population-over-time https://www.migrationpolicy.org/programs/data-hub/charts/imm... - immigrants are close to 15% of total population. This chart also does not mention number of children of these immigrants. These are people who do not have this inherited and ingrained guilt for enslavement simply because they did not live here when that was happening, nor their ancestors to tell them stories.