6 ms·

I'm just going to point out regarding schools: if you let the state come build it for you, you're probably going to get a big, deadly dumpster fire of a school.

by tbihl 9y ago

I'm just going to point out regarding schools: if you let the state come build it for you, you're probably going to get a big, deadly dumpster fire of a school. It'll be a regional consolidated school so they can put a huge educational campus all in one place. It'll be far from any town because that's where the land is cheap. Everyone will have to choose between driving their kids to school or putting them on hour-long bus rides. And it'll abut a road where the 85th percentile speed is in excess of 50mph, which is not the smartest place for a hive of people who are immature and inadequately familiar with their own mortality. And some of them will probably be driving to it, too. Then 25 years from now, those kids will find the asterisk from the state where they find themselves liable for all the maintenance on the huge complex they couldn't afford in the first place when the ceiling is leaking and there are cracks growing in the gymnasium's walls. Hard to imagine why they don't have much affection for the programs provided by taxation. Admittedly, it's petty to take those grievances out on the local government, which probably provides the only public services they like. But when all you hear about is federal and state foolishness, and all you can affect is your own town, the misplaced anger isn't that surprising.

bllguo 9y ago
Thanks for the perspective. And because of things like this, rural folk don't want "our" help. They fall further behind, become more insular and hateful. Self-reinforcing cycle. Solving these problems is extremely important and will likely involve harsh tradeoffs. Unfortunately, in the US it feels like we need some dramatic examples before people will finally accept that tradeoffs are necessary.
- hermitdev 9y ago
  Let me preface by: I don't mean to offend, but I think your perception is fundamentally wrong. Rural folk don't want help from your "our" because their situation is different than yours. What works for major metropolitan areas doesn't work for small or rural schools. In an area where likely career paths involve working on or inheriting the family farm or ranch, more urban-centric curricula don't make sense. It's not that rural people in the US are more insular, it's that they need to be more independent. For instance, when the nearest ambulance may be an hour away, you learn to deal with emergency medical issues yourself, or you or your loved one die. When that ambulance cannot get to your house when the husband is having a heart attack, the wife somehow manages to get her husband into a vehicle to meet the ambulance somewhere the ambulance can reach. When the nearest sheriff is likewise an hour away when you call for help, if you even have 911, the sheriff is likely going to assume you have a shotgun, tell you to get it out, load it, and use it, if necessary. It's not that rural people in the US are insular or unaware of the rest of the US, it's that their situations are entirely different from what city dwellers encounter. Ambulances, police and fire response aren't just a few minutes away. It can be hours before emergency services arrive. And likewise, getting to even your local school that graduates at a HS level can take an hour or more. Getting to a college or university likely will take even longer. edit: grammar, spelling, minor bit of clarity.
  - tbihl 9y ago
    Thank you, this is more in keeping with what I meant (though I might have done a clearer job saying it.) The place I have in mind is admittedly denser than what you describe, and is in many ways the worst of both worlds, but I think the lessons are similar. My home town is one of two 20,000 person towns in a 1000mi^2 county of 120k. Any time you have the combination of major repairs needed at schools and budget shortfalls at either the town schools or the county schools, the idea of consolidation gets floated around. My hometown is a town of 20k with about 950 in high school: enough for some variety, but not enough for all the really fancy stuff that the huge new schools have. On the other hand, the fastest speed limit along the school is 25mph, and it borders the walkable part of town (the rest of the town having been built after WW2.) It seems like someone is always talking about bonds and matching funds from the state to build some monstrosity at the edge of town so it's only reachable by bus. The problems of the school are many, but facility is not very high up on the list. The lack of smartboards, likewise. All the best teachers/professors I ever had used whiteboards or blackboards, and plenty of them held classes in buildings 3 times as old as my high school, with trashcans in the hallway to catch the rainwater. That's not to say there's not a place for new things in education, but thoughtful use of it doesn't require brand new everything.
    - Something1234 9y ago
      I honestly believe that smartboards reduce the quality of education. The majority of my teachers who have used them didn't teach with rigor. I believe that the use of a board one has to write on forces them to know their material better.
  - jonathankoren 9y ago
    Where are you talking about? Because as a rural Illinoisan, none of this rings true. Response times aren't anywhere like a major metropolitan city, but they are not nearly as abysmal as you're saying. Also, assuming kids are going to be working on "the family farm or ranch" is ignoring the past 50 years agricultural consolidation in America. The economic landscape of the rural midwest has changed a lot in just my lifetime.
  - 9y ago
forapurpose 9y ago
> if you let the state come build it for you, you're probably going to get a big, deadly dumpster fire of a school An interesting theory, but many of the top universities in the world are state universities: Berkeley, UCLA, U. of Michigan, U. of Washington, and (if Wikipedia is accurate and I understand it correctly) ETH-Zurich, University College London and University of Toronto are all top 25 global universities.[0] I'm omitting Imperial College London and LSE because I don't know their status. [0] https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankings/2018/world-ranking#!/page/0/length/100/sort_by/rank/sort_order/asc/cols/stats https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankin...
- felipemnoa 9y ago
  I believe he was talking about high school education or less. State Universities are a different beast.

by tbihl 9y ago

bllguo 9y ago

Thanks for the perspective. And because of things like this, rural folk don't want "our" help. They fall further behind, become more insular and hateful. Self-reinforcing cycle. Solving these problems is extremely important and will likely involve harsh tradeoffs. Unfortunately, in the US it feels like we need some dramatic examples before people will finally accept that tradeoffs are necessary.

hermitdev 9y ago
Let me preface by: I don't mean to offend, but I think your perception is fundamentally wrong. Rural folk don't want help from your "our" because their situation is different than yours. What works for major metropolitan areas doesn't work for small or rural schools. In an area where likely career paths involve working on or inheriting the family farm or ranch, more urban-centric curricula don't make sense. It's not that rural people in the US are more insular, it's that they need to be more independent. For instance, when the nearest ambulance may be an hour away, you learn to deal with emergency medical issues yourself, or you or your loved one die. When that ambulance cannot get to your house when the husband is having a heart attack, the wife somehow manages to get her husband into a vehicle to meet the ambulance somewhere the ambulance can reach. When the nearest sheriff is likewise an hour away when you call for help, if you even have 911, the sheriff is likely going to assume you have a shotgun, tell you to get it out, load it, and use it, if necessary. It's not that rural people in the US are insular or unaware of the rest of the US, it's that their situations are entirely different from what city dwellers encounter. Ambulances, police and fire response aren't just a few minutes away. It can be hours before emergency services arrive. And likewise, getting to even your local school that graduates at a HS level can take an hour or more. Getting to a college or university likely will take even longer. edit: grammar, spelling, minor bit of clarity.
- tbihl 9y ago
  Thank you, this is more in keeping with what I meant (though I might have done a clearer job saying it.) The place I have in mind is admittedly denser than what you describe, and is in many ways the worst of both worlds, but I think the lessons are similar. My home town is one of two 20,000 person towns in a 1000mi^2 county of 120k. Any time you have the combination of major repairs needed at schools and budget shortfalls at either the town schools or the county schools, the idea of consolidation gets floated around. My hometown is a town of 20k with about 950 in high school: enough for some variety, but not enough for all the really fancy stuff that the huge new schools have. On the other hand, the fastest speed limit along the school is 25mph, and it borders the walkable part of town (the rest of the town having been built after WW2.) It seems like someone is always talking about bonds and matching funds from the state to build some monstrosity at the edge of town so it's only reachable by bus. The problems of the school are many, but facility is not very high up on the list. The lack of smartboards, likewise. All the best teachers/professors I ever had used whiteboards or blackboards, and plenty of them held classes in buildings 3 times as old as my high school, with trashcans in the hallway to catch the rainwater. That's not to say there's not a place for new things in education, but thoughtful use of it doesn't require brand new everything.
  - Something1234 9y ago
    I honestly believe that smartboards reduce the quality of education. The majority of my teachers who have used them didn't teach with rigor. I believe that the use of a board one has to write on forces them to know their material better.
- jonathankoren 9y ago
  Where are you talking about? Because as a rural Illinoisan, none of this rings true. Response times aren't anywhere like a major metropolitan city, but they are not nearly as abysmal as you're saying. Also, assuming kids are going to be working on "the family farm or ranch" is ignoring the past 50 years agricultural consolidation in America. The economic landscape of the rural midwest has changed a lot in just my lifetime.
- 9y ago

forapurpose 9y ago

> if you let the state come build it for you, you're probably going to get a big, deadly dumpster fire of a school An interesting theory, but many of the top universities in the world are state universities: Berkeley, UCLA, U. of Michigan, U. of Washington, and (if Wikipedia is accurate and I understand it correctly) ETH-Zurich, University College London and University of Toronto are all top 25 global universities.[0] I'm omitting Imperial College London and LSE because I don't know their status. [0] https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankings/2018/world-ranking#!/page/0/length/100/sort_by/rank/sort_order/asc/cols/stats https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankin...

felipemnoa 9y ago
I believe he was talking about high school education or less. State Universities are a different beast.