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On the plus side, I just visited China last month and never felt safer. Before you would wear your backpack on the front of your chest when taking public transp

On the plus side, I just visited China last month and never felt safer. Before you would wear your backpack on the front of your chest when taking public transportation for fear of thieves. Now, with surveillance everywhere (and random ID checks at subways), you can freely wear your backpack on your back where it belongs without fear of theft.

musage 9y ago
When you were there, did you visit or even help anyone who got, say, jailed for their dissenting opinion? Dare I guess? If we could make magically avoid all buffer overflows in all languages, forever, by imprisoning all red headed people forever, would that be okay? Would our increased comfort be worth their increased discomfort? If George Orwell and others had known that we'd end up welcoming total surveillance because then we don't have to wear our backpack on the front of our chest, they probably wouldn't have bothered to write. My head is kinda spinning from that, to be honest. I knew it's bad, but I had no idea it's this bad.
gcb0 9y ago
without fear of theft, political organizational, labour bargaining groups, religious freedom, etc, etc.
- whooshee 9y ago
  Ah, unfortunately, there are many theft and violence in quite a few big Western cities.
Feniks 9y ago
You're not wrong, article looks at it from a Western viewpoint. This surveillance is actually not new. Its a throwback to imperial China, with technology added to it. I can imagine a lot of Chinese prefer it to lawlessness. It does cost vast amounts of money though. China spends more on surveillance and the police than the entire military budget.
- headsoup 9y ago
  I imagine there are some shades of grey between 'authoritarian surveillance' and 'lawlessness'...
- brokenmachine 9y ago
  > I can imagine a lot of Chinese prefer it to lawlessness. But would they prefer even more to have a choice in the matter?
keiferski 9y ago
There are plenty of western “free countries” with little-to-no street crime. It’s not an either-or situation.
- SN76477 9y ago
  I have been thinking lately about the purpose of crime. Obviously people get robbed and bad things happen, but what would happen in a society without crime? is it possible that crime has a larger purpose?
  - 45h34jh53k4j 9y ago
    stagnation. without risk there is no progress.
    - SN76477 9y ago
      would you say that without crime humans would be complacent?
  - brokenmachine 9y ago
    It's hard when there are so many laws on the books that it's almost impossible to not break one here and there. "Crime" is a very loose term. Things like robbery and assault are obvious but there are a lot of laws out there that have no real "victim", or are enforced only when the powers that be have an inclination to.
  - crpatino 9y ago
    Purpose is such a strong word. It implies that someone put it there when it could not have happened on its own, or at least that someone has the power to remove it but decided to forego that option in favor of keeping it around for an ulterior motive. Standard theory says that crime just happens. Every human society has its share of deviants and antisocial types. These people will test the boundaries and break the rules whenever they think they can get away with it. And given that law enforcement is never 100% perfect, yes, it means some of these deviants will hurt other people in order to get something they want without putting any kind of effort to actually earn it. Now, what kind of twisted Lawful!Deviant would want to enable and help the lesser deviants in order to achieve her own selfish goals, and what goals should that be????
yusuke10 9y ago
Sigh, another passerby tourist making a comment that is so out of touch with reality that is borderline autistic. Those surveillance are means to oppress a large number of people.
- PhasmaFelis 9y ago
  > borderline autistic Hi, I'm autistic and I'd appreciate it if you didn't use me as a synonym for "stupid," thanks.
- sctb 9y ago
  Please stop abusing this community. We ban single-purpose accounts with an agenda and we ban accounts that won't post civilly. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Cw67NTN8F 9y ago
North Korea is even safer, I'm willing to bet. Wanna live there?
duxup 9y ago
What is this fear of thieves thing? Is that some sort of line folks are selling, everyone in the west is afraid of .... thieves?
odiroot 9y ago
That's the general feeling of the population as well -- as explained by my Chinese friends. They're okay with the surveillance if it's going to prevent terrorist attacks or even more localised crime. And most of the citizens couldn't even be bothered about losing access to non-Chinese Internet websites. The Chinese ones are good enough or sometimes even better, tailored to their tastes.

musage 9y ago

When you were there, did you visit or even help anyone who got, say, jailed for their dissenting opinion? Dare I guess? If we could make magically avoid all buffer overflows in all languages, forever, by imprisoning all red headed people forever, would that be okay? Would our increased comfort be worth their increased discomfort? If George Orwell and others had known that we'd end up welcoming total surveillance because then we don't have to wear our backpack on the front of our chest, they probably wouldn't have bothered to write. My head is kinda spinning from that, to be honest. I knew it's bad, but I had no idea it's this bad.

gcb0 9y ago

without fear of theft, political organizational, labour bargaining groups, religious freedom, etc, etc.

whooshee 9y ago
Ah, unfortunately, there are many theft and violence in quite a few big Western cities.

Feniks 9y ago

You're not wrong, article looks at it from a Western viewpoint. This surveillance is actually not new. Its a throwback to imperial China, with technology added to it. I can imagine a lot of Chinese prefer it to lawlessness. It does cost vast amounts of money though. China spends more on surveillance and the police than the entire military budget.

headsoup 9y ago
I imagine there are some shades of grey between 'authoritarian surveillance' and 'lawlessness'...
brokenmachine 9y ago
> I can imagine a lot of Chinese prefer it to lawlessness. But would they prefer even more to have a choice in the matter?

keiferski 9y ago

There are plenty of western “free countries” with little-to-no street crime. It’s not an either-or situation.

SN76477 9y ago
I have been thinking lately about the purpose of crime. Obviously people get robbed and bad things happen, but what would happen in a society without crime? is it possible that crime has a larger purpose?
- 45h34jh53k4j 9y ago
  stagnation. without risk there is no progress.
  - SN76477 9y ago
    would you say that without crime humans would be complacent?
- brokenmachine 9y ago
  It's hard when there are so many laws on the books that it's almost impossible to not break one here and there. "Crime" is a very loose term. Things like robbery and assault are obvious but there are a lot of laws out there that have no real "victim", or are enforced only when the powers that be have an inclination to.
- crpatino 9y ago
  Purpose is such a strong word. It implies that someone put it there when it could not have happened on its own, or at least that someone has the power to remove it but decided to forego that option in favor of keeping it around for an ulterior motive. Standard theory says that crime just happens. Every human society has its share of deviants and antisocial types. These people will test the boundaries and break the rules whenever they think they can get away with it. And given that law enforcement is never 100% perfect, yes, it means some of these deviants will hurt other people in order to get something they want without putting any kind of effort to actually earn it. Now, what kind of twisted Lawful!Deviant would want to enable and help the lesser deviants in order to achieve her own selfish goals, and what goals should that be????

yusuke10 9y ago

Sigh, another passerby tourist making a comment that is so out of touch with reality that is borderline autistic. Those surveillance are means to oppress a large number of people.

PhasmaFelis 9y ago
> borderline autistic Hi, I'm autistic and I'd appreciate it if you didn't use me as a synonym for "stupid," thanks.
sctb 9y ago
Please stop abusing this community. We ban single-purpose accounts with an agenda and we ban accounts that won't post civilly. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Cw67NTN8F 9y ago

North Korea is even safer, I'm willing to bet. Wanna live there?

duxup 9y ago

What is this fear of thieves thing? Is that some sort of line folks are selling, everyone in the west is afraid of .... thieves?

odiroot 9y ago

That's the general feeling of the population as well -- as explained by my Chinese friends. They're okay with the surveillance if it's going to prevent terrorist attacks or even more localised crime. And most of the citizens couldn't even be bothered about losing access to non-Chinese Internet websites. The Chinese ones are good enough or sometimes even better, tailored to their tastes.