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It seems to me that the only relevant standards to compare it with are Dutch. Obviously the overall standard of living in NL (and most surrounding countries) is

It seems to me that the only relevant standards to compare it with are Dutch. Obviously the overall standard of living in NL (and most surrounding countries) is high, from a global perspective. It does not make the failure any less spectacular for me. And for the no-go areas in NL.. There is a strong political will here, and in neighboring countries, to defend this stance; It has become some sort of a mantra. I would argue that there are plenty of no-go areas in NL. Yes, Honduras is worse, so is Sudan, or whatever, but in reality there are many places that people will not go, or would be comfortable letting there loved ones go, because of safety concerns. You could compare this to some failed state/city anywhere in the world, or you could argue that anybody should be relatively safe (and feel as such) anytime of the day. The Bijlmer really is a "shithole" by any standard. (I am Dutch)

bkor 9y ago
> I would argue that there are plenty of no-go areas in NL. Your username indicates you're Dutch. I do wonder if you're aware of the common definition of a no-go area? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-go_area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-go_area. From Wikipedia: "A "no-go area" (or "no-go zone") is an area that has a reputation for violence and crime which makes people frightened to go there, an area in a town barricaded off to civil authorities by a force such as a paramilitary, or an area barred to certain individuals or groups.[1] It has also been used to refer to areas undergoing insurgency where ruling authorities have lost control and are unable to enforce sovereignty.[2]" There's a few areas where people might not like to walk there at night. There are NO no go areas though. A friend works for the city of Rotterdam. South of Rotterdam has a similar reputation as the Bijlmer. Whenever they show around South of Rotterdam to city officials from other countries those officials almost always ask when they'll arrive to the problematic area; this while standing right in that area (e.g. Afrikaanderbuurt). You want to argue no-go areas? Go ahead..
- mvdwoord 9y ago
  > Your username indicates you're Dutch. I also explicitly stated this at the end of my comment ;) One of the three definitions you gave states: > "an area that has a reputation for violence and crime which makes people frightened to go there" Just this week, the mayor of Nijmegen (medium sized city in the East of the Netherlands) asked people not to go to ATMs in low traffic locations due to spikes in violent robberies. The Bijlmer also has a reputation for violence and crime, which makes people frightened to go there. This goes quite a bit further than simply "not liking to walk there at night". No, we are not in Brazil, Honduras, or Sudan. Yes, especially when you go during the day, with a local government delegation no less, most of it will appear extremely safe and clean and well-organized etc. I also had some wonderful times in cities in Honduras. One of those is in every list of most violent / dangerous cities of the world. I have no strong desire to argue no-go areas, but I just find it dangerous and unproductive to ignore real problems because I believe that society is fragile and requires constant attention. Akin to the broken window theory. Not many barricaded off areas to civil authorities in NL, by force of a paramilitary. Let's keep it that way, and make it even better.

bkor 9y ago

> I would argue that there are plenty of no-go areas in NL. Your username indicates you're Dutch. I do wonder if you're aware of the common definition of a no-go area? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-go_area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-go_area. From Wikipedia: "A "no-go area" (or "no-go zone") is an area that has a reputation for violence and crime which makes people frightened to go there, an area in a town barricaded off to civil authorities by a force such as a paramilitary, or an area barred to certain individuals or groups.[1] It has also been used to refer to areas undergoing insurgency where ruling authorities have lost control and are unable to enforce sovereignty.[2]" There's a few areas where people might not like to walk there at night. There are NO no go areas though. A friend works for the city of Rotterdam. South of Rotterdam has a similar reputation as the Bijlmer. Whenever they show around South of Rotterdam to city officials from other countries those officials almost always ask when they'll arrive to the problematic area; this while standing right in that area (e.g. Afrikaanderbuurt). You want to argue no-go areas? Go ahead..

mvdwoord 9y ago
> Your username indicates you're Dutch. I also explicitly stated this at the end of my comment ;) One of the three definitions you gave states: > "an area that has a reputation for violence and crime which makes people frightened to go there" Just this week, the mayor of Nijmegen (medium sized city in the East of the Netherlands) asked people not to go to ATMs in low traffic locations due to spikes in violent robberies. The Bijlmer also has a reputation for violence and crime, which makes people frightened to go there. This goes quite a bit further than simply "not liking to walk there at night". No, we are not in Brazil, Honduras, or Sudan. Yes, especially when you go during the day, with a local government delegation no less, most of it will appear extremely safe and clean and well-organized etc. I also had some wonderful times in cities in Honduras. One of those is in every list of most violent / dangerous cities of the world. I have no strong desire to argue no-go areas, but I just find it dangerous and unproductive to ignore real problems because I believe that society is fragile and requires constant attention. Akin to the broken window theory. Not many barricaded off areas to civil authorities in NL, by force of a paramilitary. Let's keep it that way, and make it even better.