4 ms·

>xyz is hard in education, especially for women' creates an environment in which men should just suck it up and 'stop whining' because women have it truly hard.

>xyz is hard in education, especially for women' creates an environment in which men should just suck it up and 'stop whining' because women have it truly hard. It isn't a competition. Everyone's experiences are valid and correct. That women, on average, face the problems of (profession) plus the problems of being a woman in (profession). This doesn't mean that men don't have problems, that their problems are somehow invalidated, or that they should "man up" and take it - the idea that men should do so is actually a problem of _men_ in (profession), because men also have their own set of problems. That women generally, on average, face more and more significant issues does not invalidate anybody and should not cause a competition to find who is most disadvantaged. It should be one component of a rallying point by which everyone's lives can be improved, men and women and everyone else.

apatters 9y ago
You come across in this comment like you're trying to have your cake and eat it too. In the first paragraph you say that everyone's issues are "valid," but in the second you say women's issues are more "significant." What does it even mean to say that men's issues are valid but not significant? It sounds like you're still writing off men's issues as unimportant. The whole premise that women's issues are more significant or important deserves some skepticism. We can cherry pick certain groups of privileged people, such as computer engineers or CEOs, where I'd agree that women have it harder. (In education, I'm less convinced.) But in the general US population (which is majority female): - The unemployment rate is majority male - The homeless population is majority male - The incarceration rate is massively majority male - Women do better in school - Women live longer
- annabellish 9y ago
  > In the first paragraph you say that everyone's issues are "valid," but in the second you say women's issues are more "significant." What does it even mean to say that men's issues are valid but not significant? It sounds like you're still writing off men's issues as unimportant. Please do not put words into my mouth. Somebody with a broken leg has a significant and important injury. Somebody who has had their leg torn off has a _more_ significant injury. This does not mean anybody is suggesting a broken leg is not awful, nor that we as a society should not do something about broken legs.
  - apatters 9y ago
    In triage a medic would address the dismemberment first, and only address the broken leg when time and resources permitted. So it still seems to me like you're saying men's issues are less important -- in your analogy they're comparable to a minor injury, and women's issues are comparable to one that's life-threatening. I think that as a society we should prioritize dealing with issues that cause the greatest harm to the most vulnerable people. I don't think the gender of the victims should be the first order concern. My message to corporate America is that I'm unimpressed by diversity hiring quotas. I'd be much more impressed if they ran programs that put ex-cons of any race or gender to work in good jobs. I would favor using a company's product if they did that.
mosselman 9y ago
"It isn't a competition." and "...women generally, on average, face more and more significant issues"? Double standards aside, that is exactly my point. It isn't a competition and it isn't fruitful to talk about gender when describing the struggles of people in a profession unless those struggles are directly related to gender. Which in this case they clearly aren't. I think reducing every problem, in this case getting overworked, to gender devalues the real discussion about gender inequality. One real problem with people getting overworked is budget. More money for more workers will make everybody's job easier. Another aspect is people's personal lives in which they can face challenges that cause them stress and make it hard to balance work and life. Solving things like this will make everybody's lives better regardless of their age, race, gender, sexual preference, etc. You also say: "women generally, on average, face more and more significant issues" "men also have their own set of problems." "Everyone's experiences are valid and correct." Again this is the 'men have problems but women have the real problems' argument. "Everyone's experiences are valid and correct." some are just more valid and correct.
- annabellish 9y ago
  It _isn't_ a competition. There is no "more valid and correct", and I did not suggest that there was - in fact, I directly stated the opposite multiple times. Just because a worse thing exists does not make something not bad. The world is allowed to be made out of shades of grey.
  - mosselman 9y ago
    "The world is allowed to be made out of shades of grey." I never said it isn't. I just don't see how voicing an opinion on who has it worse or not in a discussion about a different subject can lead to anything else than the polarisation of the discussion. You can do whatever you want of course. I was just pointing out that I feel that there is some underlying sexism in the article and that it should probably be taken into account when determining its value.
monkeynotes 9y ago
If it's not a competition (a comparison so to say) why distinguish between men and women at all? The problems she identifies are not at all gender specific, not in my generation at least. That said, to be fair, I don't think she made the article particularly slanted or gender focussed. I think she was just talking about her experience, and identifying her gender is probably a by-product of our time, a time when women are maturing into, and pushing for, equality.
Spooky23 9y ago
Huh? 75% of teachers are female. 80% of elementary teachers are female. 95% of kindergarten teachers are female. If you are talking about investment banking or civil engineering, sure systematic discrimination is a thing. Teaching is not one of these. If you want to see discrimination, talk to to male K-2 teacher.
saiya-jin 9y ago
> That women, on average, face the problems of (profession) plus the problems of being a woman in (profession). I face a professional problem - I am just a normal straight hetero healthy white male, no kids yet. I can't join in all honesty any disprivileged group to prevent me being fired in next corporate firing round. I can guarantee you that no manager (meaning already politics-playing individual) these days wants to be firing a minority/homosexual/disabled person from their team. They rather fire a guy like me just to avoid any diversity radar, long-term impact on the team or objective performance be damned. You think I am joking? I see people 'hedging' against being fired by being involved as much as they can (I don't care about this corporate job that much, but I don't expect elsewhere to be much different. And startup world has its own issues.) I've experienced this over my whole career, but till now it had been only women - cherished in dev teams and hired over +-same or slightly better guys, given extra time to adjust/train, extra help with debugging etc. No problems with it, we're gentlemen after all. I never saw a female dev being fired, and I've been through maybe 15 firing rounds over my career, seeing women as equal performers with slightly different perspective on the tasks.

apatters 9y ago

You come across in this comment like you're trying to have your cake and eat it too. In the first paragraph you say that everyone's issues are "valid," but in the second you say women's issues are more "significant." What does it even mean to say that men's issues are valid but not significant? It sounds like you're still writing off men's issues as unimportant. The whole premise that women's issues are more significant or important deserves some skepticism. We can cherry pick certain groups of privileged people, such as computer engineers or CEOs, where I'd agree that women have it harder. (In education, I'm less convinced.) But in the general US population (which is majority female): - The unemployment rate is majority male - The homeless population is majority male - The incarceration rate is massively majority male - Women do better in school - Women live longer

annabellish 9y ago
> In the first paragraph you say that everyone's issues are "valid," but in the second you say women's issues are more "significant." What does it even mean to say that men's issues are valid but not significant? It sounds like you're still writing off men's issues as unimportant. Please do not put words into my mouth. Somebody with a broken leg has a significant and important injury. Somebody who has had their leg torn off has a _more_ significant injury. This does not mean anybody is suggesting a broken leg is not awful, nor that we as a society should not do something about broken legs.
- apatters 9y ago
  In triage a medic would address the dismemberment first, and only address the broken leg when time and resources permitted. So it still seems to me like you're saying men's issues are less important -- in your analogy they're comparable to a minor injury, and women's issues are comparable to one that's life-threatening. I think that as a society we should prioritize dealing with issues that cause the greatest harm to the most vulnerable people. I don't think the gender of the victims should be the first order concern. My message to corporate America is that I'm unimpressed by diversity hiring quotas. I'd be much more impressed if they ran programs that put ex-cons of any race or gender to work in good jobs. I would favor using a company's product if they did that.

mosselman 9y ago

"It isn't a competition." and "...women generally, on average, face more and more significant issues"? Double standards aside, that is exactly my point. It isn't a competition and it isn't fruitful to talk about gender when describing the struggles of people in a profession unless those struggles are directly related to gender. Which in this case they clearly aren't. I think reducing every problem, in this case getting overworked, to gender devalues the real discussion about gender inequality. One real problem with people getting overworked is budget. More money for more workers will make everybody's job easier. Another aspect is people's personal lives in which they can face challenges that cause them stress and make it hard to balance work and life. Solving things like this will make everybody's lives better regardless of their age, race, gender, sexual preference, etc. You also say: "women generally, on average, face more and more significant issues" "men also have their own set of problems." "Everyone's experiences are valid and correct." Again this is the 'men have problems but women have the real problems' argument. "Everyone's experiences are valid and correct." some are just more valid and correct.

annabellish 9y ago
It _isn't_ a competition. There is no "more valid and correct", and I did not suggest that there was - in fact, I directly stated the opposite multiple times. Just because a worse thing exists does not make something not bad. The world is allowed to be made out of shades of grey.
- mosselman 9y ago
  "The world is allowed to be made out of shades of grey." I never said it isn't. I just don't see how voicing an opinion on who has it worse or not in a discussion about a different subject can lead to anything else than the polarisation of the discussion. You can do whatever you want of course. I was just pointing out that I feel that there is some underlying sexism in the article and that it should probably be taken into account when determining its value.

monkeynotes 9y ago

If it's not a competition (a comparison so to say) why distinguish between men and women at all? The problems she identifies are not at all gender specific, not in my generation at least. That said, to be fair, I don't think she made the article particularly slanted or gender focussed. I think she was just talking about her experience, and identifying her gender is probably a by-product of our time, a time when women are maturing into, and pushing for, equality.

Spooky23 9y ago

Huh? 75% of teachers are female. 80% of elementary teachers are female. 95% of kindergarten teachers are female. If you are talking about investment banking or civil engineering, sure systematic discrimination is a thing. Teaching is not one of these. If you want to see discrimination, talk to to male K-2 teacher.

saiya-jin 9y ago

> That women, on average, face the problems of (profession) plus the problems of being a woman in (profession). I face a professional problem - I am just a normal straight hetero healthy white male, no kids yet. I can't join in all honesty any disprivileged group to prevent me being fired in next corporate firing round. I can guarantee you that no manager (meaning already politics-playing individual) these days wants to be firing a minority/homosexual/disabled person from their team. They rather fire a guy like me just to avoid any diversity radar, long-term impact on the team or objective performance be damned. You think I am joking? I see people 'hedging' against being fired by being involved as much as they can (I don't care about this corporate job that much, but I don't expect elsewhere to be much different. And startup world has its own issues.) I've experienced this over my whole career, but till now it had been only women - cherished in dev teams and hired over +-same or slightly better guys, given extra time to adjust/train, extra help with debugging etc. No problems with it, we're gentlemen after all. I never saw a female dev being fired, and I've been through maybe 15 firing rounds over my career, seeing women as equal performers with slightly different perspective on the tasks.