3 ms·

I'm a foreigner living in Amsterdam and I'm assuming you're Dutch. Look, the Bijlmer area is certainly problematic within Dutch standards, and I would just call

I'm a foreigner living in Amsterdam and I'm assuming you're Dutch. Look, the Bijlmer area is certainly problematic within Dutch standards, and I would just call it a massive failure within these standards. Really, there are no no-go areas in this country and it's a very well accomplished land in many societal parameters, when comparing to the world. I'd call a colossal failure the city I'm from, Rio de Janeiro.

jacquesm 9y ago
It's all relative, that's for sure. I've lived in lots of different places and indeed, by Dutch standards the Bijlmer is a collosal failure, at the same time it is obvious that that is the context. This is a country that is pretty big on making stuff work, if not for that the country itself wouldn't even exist. Engineering on this scale is nothing strange to the Dutch mentality at all, turning sea into land or having Eifel-tower sized movable dams to keep out the water is something people don't even bat an eye at (probably because they are unaware of the feats of engineering underpinning that). That there are much worse places in the world I readily concede, but it did not at all turn out how it was meant to be and that's what differentiates Bijlmermeer from the rest of the Netherlands and how major planning is done here, and that is why to me it is a collosal failure. By the way: welcome to our little rainy country!
- drukenemo 9y ago
  Bedankt! (Thank you, in Dutch)
mvdwoord 9y ago
It seems to me that the only relevant standards to compare it with are Dutch. Obviously the overall standard of living in NL (and most surrounding countries) is high, from a global perspective. It does not make the failure any less spectacular for me. And for the no-go areas in NL.. There is a strong political will here, and in neighboring countries, to defend this stance; It has become some sort of a mantra. I would argue that there are plenty of no-go areas in NL. Yes, Honduras is worse, so is Sudan, or whatever, but in reality there are many places that people will not go, or would be comfortable letting there loved ones go, because of safety concerns. You could compare this to some failed state/city anywhere in the world, or you could argue that anybody should be relatively safe (and feel as such) anytime of the day. The Bijlmer really is a "shithole" by any standard. (I am Dutch)
- bkor 9y ago
  > I would argue that there are plenty of no-go areas in NL. Your username indicates you're Dutch. I do wonder if you're aware of the common definition of a no-go area? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-go_area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-go_area. From Wikipedia: "A "no-go area" (or "no-go zone") is an area that has a reputation for violence and crime which makes people frightened to go there, an area in a town barricaded off to civil authorities by a force such as a paramilitary, or an area barred to certain individuals or groups.[1] It has also been used to refer to areas undergoing insurgency where ruling authorities have lost control and are unable to enforce sovereignty.[2]" There's a few areas where people might not like to walk there at night. There are NO no go areas though. A friend works for the city of Rotterdam. South of Rotterdam has a similar reputation as the Bijlmer. Whenever they show around South of Rotterdam to city officials from other countries those officials almost always ask when they'll arrive to the problematic area; this while standing right in that area (e.g. Afrikaanderbuurt). You want to argue no-go areas? Go ahead..
  - mvdwoord 9y ago
    > Your username indicates you're Dutch. I also explicitly stated this at the end of my comment ;) One of the three definitions you gave states: > "an area that has a reputation for violence and crime which makes people frightened to go there" Just this week, the mayor of Nijmegen (medium sized city in the East of the Netherlands) asked people not to go to ATMs in low traffic locations due to spikes in violent robberies. The Bijlmer also has a reputation for violence and crime, which makes people frightened to go there. This goes quite a bit further than simply "not liking to walk there at night". No, we are not in Brazil, Honduras, or Sudan. Yes, especially when you go during the day, with a local government delegation no less, most of it will appear extremely safe and clean and well-organized etc. I also had some wonderful times in cities in Honduras. One of those is in every list of most violent / dangerous cities of the world. I have no strong desire to argue no-go areas, but I just find it dangerous and unproductive to ignore real problems because I believe that society is fragile and requires constant attention. Akin to the broken window theory. Not many barricaded off areas to civil authorities in NL, by force of a paramilitary. Let's keep it that way, and make it even better.

jacquesm 9y ago

It's all relative, that's for sure. I've lived in lots of different places and indeed, by Dutch standards the Bijlmer is a collosal failure, at the same time it is obvious that that is the context. This is a country that is pretty big on making stuff work, if not for that the country itself wouldn't even exist. Engineering on this scale is nothing strange to the Dutch mentality at all, turning sea into land or having Eifel-tower sized movable dams to keep out the water is something people don't even bat an eye at (probably because they are unaware of the feats of engineering underpinning that). That there are much worse places in the world I readily concede, but it did not at all turn out how it was meant to be and that's what differentiates Bijlmermeer from the rest of the Netherlands and how major planning is done here, and that is why to me it is a collosal failure. By the way: welcome to our little rainy country!

drukenemo 9y ago
Bedankt! (Thank you, in Dutch)

mvdwoord 9y ago

It seems to me that the only relevant standards to compare it with are Dutch. Obviously the overall standard of living in NL (and most surrounding countries) is high, from a global perspective. It does not make the failure any less spectacular for me. And for the no-go areas in NL.. There is a strong political will here, and in neighboring countries, to defend this stance; It has become some sort of a mantra. I would argue that there are plenty of no-go areas in NL. Yes, Honduras is worse, so is Sudan, or whatever, but in reality there are many places that people will not go, or would be comfortable letting there loved ones go, because of safety concerns. You could compare this to some failed state/city anywhere in the world, or you could argue that anybody should be relatively safe (and feel as such) anytime of the day. The Bijlmer really is a "shithole" by any standard. (I am Dutch)

bkor 9y ago
> I would argue that there are plenty of no-go areas in NL. Your username indicates you're Dutch. I do wonder if you're aware of the common definition of a no-go area? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-go_area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-go_area. From Wikipedia: "A "no-go area" (or "no-go zone") is an area that has a reputation for violence and crime which makes people frightened to go there, an area in a town barricaded off to civil authorities by a force such as a paramilitary, or an area barred to certain individuals or groups.[1] It has also been used to refer to areas undergoing insurgency where ruling authorities have lost control and are unable to enforce sovereignty.[2]" There's a few areas where people might not like to walk there at night. There are NO no go areas though. A friend works for the city of Rotterdam. South of Rotterdam has a similar reputation as the Bijlmer. Whenever they show around South of Rotterdam to city officials from other countries those officials almost always ask when they'll arrive to the problematic area; this while standing right in that area (e.g. Afrikaanderbuurt). You want to argue no-go areas? Go ahead..
- mvdwoord 9y ago
  > Your username indicates you're Dutch. I also explicitly stated this at the end of my comment ;) One of the three definitions you gave states: > "an area that has a reputation for violence and crime which makes people frightened to go there" Just this week, the mayor of Nijmegen (medium sized city in the East of the Netherlands) asked people not to go to ATMs in low traffic locations due to spikes in violent robberies. The Bijlmer also has a reputation for violence and crime, which makes people frightened to go there. This goes quite a bit further than simply "not liking to walk there at night". No, we are not in Brazil, Honduras, or Sudan. Yes, especially when you go during the day, with a local government delegation no less, most of it will appear extremely safe and clean and well-organized etc. I also had some wonderful times in cities in Honduras. One of those is in every list of most violent / dangerous cities of the world. I have no strong desire to argue no-go areas, but I just find it dangerous and unproductive to ignore real problems because I believe that society is fragile and requires constant attention. Akin to the broken window theory. Not many barricaded off areas to civil authorities in NL, by force of a paramilitary. Let's keep it that way, and make it even better.