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I was relentlessly bullied as a kid because I was not the typical boy type (which sane people now associate with a toxic masculinity). At one point my bullies (

I was relentlessly bullied as a kid because I was not the typical boy type (which sane people now associate with a toxic masculinity). At one point my bullies (there are always a group that picks on the one) chased me onto a 20 meter dam where I fell into its spillway and almost drowned. My pursuers were never punished. The only reason I didn't become a school shooter is because I literally did not know how to get a gun. I didn't live in a community where there was any kind of gun culture. That's all. If I would have had access to a gun I would have tried to kill them. Because they were, to any point of rationality, on a direct course to killing me. I felt like it was me or them. I am the school shooter poster child for gun control. Because I couldn't get a gun, I survived my ordeal and became a productive member of society. We need common sense gun control.

rvo 9y ago
> If I would have had access to a gun I would have tried to kill them. you got issues, mate. maybe talk to someone? > We need common sense gun control. like what? anything short of repealing the 2A makes no sense to me frankly. Perhaps it's time to just repeal it and possibly confiscate guns across the board.
- nickbauman 9y ago
  Nope. I was 11 years old and I defy you to take your 11 year old self in that situation and do it differently.
  - rvo 9y ago
    of course I wouldnt be too different. I'm just saying you should talk to someone about this. Isn't it good that you didn't have access to guns? So why not just repeal the 2A?
    - reitanqild 9y ago
      There's a few options between not shaving at all and removing the nose together with the eyebrows. Teaching gun culture and demanding gun safes (like it's done around here) would probably be a safer and more efficient route.
      - rvo 9y ago
        > Teaching gun culture and demanding gun safes (like it's done around here) would probably be a safer and more efficient route. That can be done and the 2A can also be repealed (gun ownership doesnt need to be a "right"). Why not do both?
        reitanqild 9y ago
        Because just getting the authorities to respect your rights is hard. If it wasn't a right then it would suddenly be worthless in many districts. Here's some middle ground: Mandatory training. Around here it is provided by hunters organizations, often at cost price. Background checks by police + recommendation by hunter organization or the equivalent of NRA.
        sathackr 9y ago
        If the 'rights' that this country was practically founded with don't need to be 'rights' -- then you should propose just eliminating the constitution in general. Why do we need a 'right' to be free of unreasonable search and seizures? Why does the freedom of speech have to be a right? I'm sure what's left of the government will act in the best interest of the entire country. And surely all the guns will just cease to exist after our right to legally bear them is repealed. Gangsters, teenage boys, drug dealers, they will all happily turn in their guns and promise not to get any more.
  - monksy 9y ago
    I can't speak for rvo. However, I'm legitimately concerned from what you wrote and that you've carried this on you since you were 11. Please, talk to someone (like a consuelor or a therapist) and work it out. Bullies do exist. Sometimes, they teach you something, and sometimes they're just bullies. (I'm not excusing their behavior).
  - giardini 9y ago
    nickbauman says>" I defy you to take your 11 year old self in that situation and do it differently." This is such an odd statement. The time is past, the actions have occurred; they cannot be redone. All that remains are your memories and emotions, which can be changed. Everyone is different and no two people handle a situation in the same way. Its too bad that you were unable to get good advice and/or consolation at the time. But maybe, with some counseling, or discussion with friends, you can revisit this bad experience and others and change how you feel about them and yourself.
- alacombe 9y ago
  > Perhaps it's time to just repeal it and possibly confiscate guns across the board. Get ready for a civil war then, because the US country side will not let the cities get their guns.
  - rvo 9y ago
    I dont understand why. How can they see school shootings and see that toxic masculinity in the form of guns is so bad for society. Do they just value different things culturally?
    - reitanqild 9y ago
      Because if you follow along here you'll see a lot of hate and vile comments about people on the countryside. Some even seems to take pride in how they can't even talk reasonably to their relatives once a year. People notice this and might not be very keen on cooperating with people who despise them. Also maybe they've read history and knows what happens to unpopular unarmed people.
      - rvo 9y ago
        Thats an interesting point. There is actual hatred for country folks. I get it though. My folks are from a village in India. We sometimes get shit on by city folks too. Some country folks like guns. But its not a "right".
        DoreenMichele 9y ago
        In the US constitution, it actually is a right. We have a right to bear arms. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Amendment_to_the_Unit...
        rvo 9y ago
        Yea, I know. I am asking why not repeal this amendment, like the 21 amendment did for the 18th. Why have it as a "right"? If its not a right, then the government can pass much stronger gun laws, including confiscations, etc. But still allows good citizens to own guns for hunting and stuff. Maybe even limit the number of guns per person, control the type of gun, etc. Just give enough so that country folks are happy with simple hunting rifles and cant do much damage.
- zvrba 9y ago
  > you got issues, mate. No, the school/community he was at had issues. They didn't take bullying seriously, did nothing to prevent it and did nothing to punish it when it went too far. It's the same here in Norway, a couple of kids committed suicide because of bullying, that got a lot of media coverage, but the situation doesn't seem to have changed. Politicians are still arguing about "what to do with bullies" and how to force them to change schools. ... And since Norway is unaccustomed to violence, I thought for long for myself that nothing's going to change until some bullied kid decides to take other's lives instead of his/her own.
  - rvo 9y ago
    > No, the school/community he was at had issues. They didn't take bullying seriously, did nothing to prevent it and did nothing to punish it when it went too far. but that definitely has left some psychological issues in him/her and so its definitely worth talking to someone, a professional, about this. People with suicidal / homicidal tendencies should definitely seek out help.
SlowRobotAhead 9y ago
How is your post not projecting? I think everyone reading it agrees you belong nowhere near guns. You don’t trust yourself and can not trust others. I wish this was uncommon, but it’s not. I guess I wonder what you think two weeks of formal firearm training in academy does to police to grant them magical self control?
DoreenMichele 9y ago
Or we could make more of an effort to foster a civilized environment so kids like you don't have legitimate grievances so severe that gunning down a group of people seems like the only solution. I don't have any problem with the idea that folks don't need semi automatic assault rifles. But that is mostly not the framing I am hearing when gun control is mentioned and it appalls me to hear the argument you are making that someone victimized like you were should simply be deprived of a means to fight back and that is something good. I am incredibly uncomfortable with the argument you are making. My dad was career military and I grew up with guns in the house. Having guns does not cause people to go postal. We need to stop being okay with a culture that routinely gives people a reason to go postal. That doesn't happen overnight because of a single ugly incident. It is the outgrowth of years of things going wrong. And we should not be okay with that and taking the position that bullying is fine as long as the victim can't get an assault rifle.
- rvo 9y ago
  > We need to stop being okay with a culture that routinely gives people a reason to go postal. why not start with eliminating the means of going "postal"? Why even have a "right" to AR15s or any guns at all.
- nickbauman 9y ago
  taking the position that bullying is fine as long as the victim can't get an assault rifle That's not what I said or even implied. Of course we need to foster an environment that prevents bullying in the first place too. Doesn't mean we don't need common sense gun control like every other democracy has done that doesn't have the sort of problems with gun violence we have. Furthermore, this constant barrage of specious anecdata of "I grew up with guns and there were no problems" flies in the face of what we know about households with guns statistically. You're far, far, far more likely to be killed with your own gun than to defend yourself lethally with it.
  - DoreenMichele 9y ago
    You literally said you are the poster child for gun control as the logical solution.
totalZero 9y ago
Your bullying-based model for how school shootings are spurred is far from what is actually happening. These school shooters aren't targeting their tormentors. This most recent shooting involved a 19-year-old former student. The Sandy Hook shooter killed defenseless elementary schoolers. > toxic masculinity What exactly does this mean? Seems like an attack on masculinity as a whole, because it's a poorly defined pejorative that focuses on men.
- detcader 9y ago
  "Toxic masculinity" refers to the masculine role/behaviors taught to boys from infancy (but really the "toxic" part is meant to soften the criticism for a centrist audience). Who would insult men for being biologically male? What would be the ends of that? The point is to assert that these behaviors are both optional and destructive to teach to just one sex. A constructive human ideal should be taught to everyone, ignoring sex like one would ignore race or shoe size or other physical property.
  - totalZero 9y ago
    > Who would insult men for being biologically male? If you can't see through the rhetorical bent of the term "toxic masculinity," then I will try to show you how I see it. To argue that this isn't an attack on masculinity, let's replace the noun only. It's like saying "toxic communism" but arguing that the phrase is not an attack on communism. Are you saying there is a special, clearly defined sort of masculinity that is toxic, yet extricable from masculinity itself? That's a tall order.
    - archagon 9y ago
      > Are you saying there is a special, clearly defined sort of masculinity that is toxic, yet extricable from masculinity itself? I mean, whether or not the lines can be cleanly drawn, there is quite obviously a divide. Think humble family man vs. aggressive jock. (Or, if you’re Christian, Jesus is a perfect example of non-toxic masculinity.) Unfortunately, we often seem to glorify the toxic kind in our media: warriors, gangsters, womanizers. Also, there are plenty of cultures around the world that do masculinity very differently than we in the West — and it has little to do with relative levels of testosterone. I think it’s also disingenuous to say that toxic masculinity poorly defined. It’s not a buzzword, but an entire subfield of sociology that has years of research behind it.
giardini 9y ago
Everyone is different; everyone has different physical and mental capabilities and different people handle themselves differently. Most people would have done something different from what you did. nickbauman>"Because they were, to any point of rationality, on a direct course to killing me. I felt like it was me or them." "To any point of rationality"?? "...me or them"?? Well, you're alive, aren't you? The idea that you thought of killing/shooting someone indicates that you were socially isolated to an extreme degree. Where were your parents, your brothers and sisters, your friends? Did you have any? And now you're still angry and, sadly, screwed up. Your anger toward your old bullies has been redirected toward responsible gun owners. Now you'll punish those old bullies by supporting "common sense gun control".
daxorid 9y ago
I have my own counterstory to yours. Like you, I was mercilessly bullied for years - up until fifth grade. At some point while being beaten by one of the larger ones, something snapped inside my mind, and I ended up chasing him down and slamming his face into the basketball court until teachers pulled me off. I was never bullied again. All because I finally exercised what all boys need to exercise: raw aggression in defense of person. It is the only language bullies ever understand.

rvo 9y ago

> If I would have had access to a gun I would have tried to kill them. you got issues, mate. maybe talk to someone? > We need common sense gun control. like what? anything short of repealing the 2A makes no sense to me frankly. Perhaps it's time to just repeal it and possibly confiscate guns across the board.

nickbauman 9y ago
Nope. I was 11 years old and I defy you to take your 11 year old self in that situation and do it differently.
- rvo 9y ago
  of course I wouldnt be too different. I'm just saying you should talk to someone about this. Isn't it good that you didn't have access to guns? So why not just repeal the 2A?
  - reitanqild 9y ago
    There's a few options between not shaving at all and removing the nose together with the eyebrows. Teaching gun culture and demanding gun safes (like it's done around here) would probably be a safer and more efficient route.
    - rvo 9y ago
      > Teaching gun culture and demanding gun safes (like it's done around here) would probably be a safer and more efficient route. That can be done and the 2A can also be repealed (gun ownership doesnt need to be a "right"). Why not do both?
      - reitanqild 9y ago
        Because just getting the authorities to respect your rights is hard. If it wasn't a right then it would suddenly be worthless in many districts. Here's some middle ground: Mandatory training. Around here it is provided by hunters organizations, often at cost price. Background checks by police + recommendation by hunter organization or the equivalent of NRA.
      - sathackr 9y ago
        If the 'rights' that this country was practically founded with don't need to be 'rights' -- then you should propose just eliminating the constitution in general. Why do we need a 'right' to be free of unreasonable search and seizures? Why does the freedom of speech have to be a right? I'm sure what's left of the government will act in the best interest of the entire country. And surely all the guns will just cease to exist after our right to legally bear them is repealed. Gangsters, teenage boys, drug dealers, they will all happily turn in their guns and promise not to get any more.
- monksy 9y ago
  I can't speak for rvo. However, I'm legitimately concerned from what you wrote and that you've carried this on you since you were 11. Please, talk to someone (like a consuelor or a therapist) and work it out. Bullies do exist. Sometimes, they teach you something, and sometimes they're just bullies. (I'm not excusing their behavior).
- giardini 9y ago
  nickbauman says>" I defy you to take your 11 year old self in that situation and do it differently." This is such an odd statement. The time is past, the actions have occurred; they cannot be redone. All that remains are your memories and emotions, which can be changed. Everyone is different and no two people handle a situation in the same way. Its too bad that you were unable to get good advice and/or consolation at the time. But maybe, with some counseling, or discussion with friends, you can revisit this bad experience and others and change how you feel about them and yourself.
alacombe 9y ago
> Perhaps it's time to just repeal it and possibly confiscate guns across the board. Get ready for a civil war then, because the US country side will not let the cities get their guns.
- rvo 9y ago
  I dont understand why. How can they see school shootings and see that toxic masculinity in the form of guns is so bad for society. Do they just value different things culturally?
  - reitanqild 9y ago
    Because if you follow along here you'll see a lot of hate and vile comments about people on the countryside. Some even seems to take pride in how they can't even talk reasonably to their relatives once a year. People notice this and might not be very keen on cooperating with people who despise them. Also maybe they've read history and knows what happens to unpopular unarmed people.
    - rvo 9y ago
      Thats an interesting point. There is actual hatred for country folks. I get it though. My folks are from a village in India. We sometimes get shit on by city folks too. Some country folks like guns. But its not a "right".
      - DoreenMichele 9y ago
        In the US constitution, it actually is a right. We have a right to bear arms. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Amendment_to_the_Unit...
        rvo 9y ago
        Yea, I know. I am asking why not repeal this amendment, like the 21 amendment did for the 18th. Why have it as a "right"? If its not a right, then the government can pass much stronger gun laws, including confiscations, etc. But still allows good citizens to own guns for hunting and stuff. Maybe even limit the number of guns per person, control the type of gun, etc. Just give enough so that country folks are happy with simple hunting rifles and cant do much damage.
zvrba 9y ago
> you got issues, mate. No, the school/community he was at had issues. They didn't take bullying seriously, did nothing to prevent it and did nothing to punish it when it went too far. It's the same here in Norway, a couple of kids committed suicide because of bullying, that got a lot of media coverage, but the situation doesn't seem to have changed. Politicians are still arguing about "what to do with bullies" and how to force them to change schools. ... And since Norway is unaccustomed to violence, I thought for long for myself that nothing's going to change until some bullied kid decides to take other's lives instead of his/her own.
- rvo 9y ago
  > No, the school/community he was at had issues. They didn't take bullying seriously, did nothing to prevent it and did nothing to punish it when it went too far. but that definitely has left some psychological issues in him/her and so its definitely worth talking to someone, a professional, about this. People with suicidal / homicidal tendencies should definitely seek out help.

SlowRobotAhead 9y ago

How is your post not projecting? I think everyone reading it agrees you belong nowhere near guns. You don’t trust yourself and can not trust others. I wish this was uncommon, but it’s not. I guess I wonder what you think two weeks of formal firearm training in academy does to police to grant them magical self control?

DoreenMichele 9y ago

Or we could make more of an effort to foster a civilized environment so kids like you don't have legitimate grievances so severe that gunning down a group of people seems like the only solution. I don't have any problem with the idea that folks don't need semi automatic assault rifles. But that is mostly not the framing I am hearing when gun control is mentioned and it appalls me to hear the argument you are making that someone victimized like you were should simply be deprived of a means to fight back and that is something good. I am incredibly uncomfortable with the argument you are making. My dad was career military and I grew up with guns in the house. Having guns does not cause people to go postal. We need to stop being okay with a culture that routinely gives people a reason to go postal. That doesn't happen overnight because of a single ugly incident. It is the outgrowth of years of things going wrong. And we should not be okay with that and taking the position that bullying is fine as long as the victim can't get an assault rifle.

rvo 9y ago
> We need to stop being okay with a culture that routinely gives people a reason to go postal. why not start with eliminating the means of going "postal"? Why even have a "right" to AR15s or any guns at all.
nickbauman 9y ago
taking the position that bullying is fine as long as the victim can't get an assault rifle That's not what I said or even implied. Of course we need to foster an environment that prevents bullying in the first place too. Doesn't mean we don't need common sense gun control like every other democracy has done that doesn't have the sort of problems with gun violence we have. Furthermore, this constant barrage of specious anecdata of "I grew up with guns and there were no problems" flies in the face of what we know about households with guns statistically. You're far, far, far more likely to be killed with your own gun than to defend yourself lethally with it.
- DoreenMichele 9y ago
  You literally said you are the poster child for gun control as the logical solution.

totalZero 9y ago

Your bullying-based model for how school shootings are spurred is far from what is actually happening. These school shooters aren't targeting their tormentors. This most recent shooting involved a 19-year-old former student. The Sandy Hook shooter killed defenseless elementary schoolers. > toxic masculinity What exactly does this mean? Seems like an attack on masculinity as a whole, because it's a poorly defined pejorative that focuses on men.

detcader 9y ago
"Toxic masculinity" refers to the masculine role/behaviors taught to boys from infancy (but really the "toxic" part is meant to soften the criticism for a centrist audience). Who would insult men for being biologically male? What would be the ends of that? The point is to assert that these behaviors are both optional and destructive to teach to just one sex. A constructive human ideal should be taught to everyone, ignoring sex like one would ignore race or shoe size or other physical property.
- totalZero 9y ago
  > Who would insult men for being biologically male? If you can't see through the rhetorical bent of the term "toxic masculinity," then I will try to show you how I see it. To argue that this isn't an attack on masculinity, let's replace the noun only. It's like saying "toxic communism" but arguing that the phrase is not an attack on communism. Are you saying there is a special, clearly defined sort of masculinity that is toxic, yet extricable from masculinity itself? That's a tall order.
  - archagon 9y ago
    > Are you saying there is a special, clearly defined sort of masculinity that is toxic, yet extricable from masculinity itself? I mean, whether or not the lines can be cleanly drawn, there is quite obviously a divide. Think humble family man vs. aggressive jock. (Or, if you’re Christian, Jesus is a perfect example of non-toxic masculinity.) Unfortunately, we often seem to glorify the toxic kind in our media: warriors, gangsters, womanizers. Also, there are plenty of cultures around the world that do masculinity very differently than we in the West — and it has little to do with relative levels of testosterone. I think it’s also disingenuous to say that toxic masculinity poorly defined. It’s not a buzzword, but an entire subfield of sociology that has years of research behind it.

giardini 9y ago

Everyone is different; everyone has different physical and mental capabilities and different people handle themselves differently. Most people would have done something different from what you did. nickbauman>"Because they were, to any point of rationality, on a direct course to killing me. I felt like it was me or them." "To any point of rationality"?? "...me or them"?? Well, you're alive, aren't you? The idea that you thought of killing/shooting someone indicates that you were socially isolated to an extreme degree. Where were your parents, your brothers and sisters, your friends? Did you have any? And now you're still angry and, sadly, screwed up. Your anger toward your old bullies has been redirected toward responsible gun owners. Now you'll punish those old bullies by supporting "common sense gun control".

daxorid 9y ago

I have my own counterstory to yours. Like you, I was mercilessly bullied for years - up until fifth grade. At some point while being beaten by one of the larger ones, something snapped inside my mind, and I ended up chasing him down and slamming his face into the basketball court until teachers pulled me off. I was never bullied again. All because I finally exercised what all boys need to exercise: raw aggression in defense of person. It is the only language bullies ever understand.