4 ms·

The topical thesis of this article is extremely weak, considering: 1. Male underachievement and lack of identity is happening elsewhere. Certainly in Canada.

by graeme 9y ago

The topical thesis of this article is extremely weak, considering: 1. Male underachievement and lack of identity is happening elsewhere. Certainly in Canada. 2. Mass shootings are not happening everywhere I think there is a much simpler explantion for male mass shooters: men commit vastly more crime. America has a cultural tendency for mass shooting crime, so it shouldn't be surprising men dominate that crime like they do the rest. Maybe fixing male identity would do it, but that's far from a given, and given international experience it doesn't seem to be the direct cause. (Men committed most crime even when they were confident in their identity) The more likely cause is the legal structure around gun ownership in the United States.

SlowRobotAhead 9y ago
>The more likely cause is the legal structure around gun ownership in the United States. And what are your qualifications on the topic? What do you actually know about the laws starting at the founding and hitting the popular milestones of 1934, 1968, 1986, 1994, 2008, and 2010? If someone doesn’t know why those years are significant but still has strong opinions on the topic... well, it’s just that the USA has been having this “conversation” for 200 years and these people are just new to it, being unaware of the facts is a bad position to start from.
- wwalser 9y ago
  This isn't an argument. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority See also reddit.com/r/iamverysmart
  - SlowRobotAhead 9y ago
    Asking someone to be educated on a topic is not an argument from authority.
- mpweiher 9y ago
  The simple fact is that (a) the US has a 10x higher gun homicide rate and ~5x higher homicide rate than other comparable countries (b) the big difference between the US and these countries is vastly higher gun ownership in the US What could the relationship be between guns and deaths from guns? Nope, too hard.
  - SlowRobotAhead 9y ago
    Saying the USA has more homicdes than other countries is a laughable statement. Of course we do, we have more guns. This is ENTIRELY to be expected. It doesn’t mean there is a problem. We have 10,000 homicdes with firearms in a country of 340,000,000 people and 400,000,000+ guns. More than 1/2 those homicides on minorities in cities that have stronger gun control. We have a drug problem not a gun problem. Remind me where drugs are legal, because if the argument that banning something makes it go away, drugs must be legal somewhere right?
    - mpweiher 9y ago
      > Saying the USA has more homicdes than other countries is a laughable statement. No. It is a trivially verifiable fact. Which you don't deny, so why is it "laughable". Is 3+4 = 7 also "laughable"? > Of course we do, we have more guns. This is ENTIRELY to be expected. Again, you seem to be violently agreeing with me: more guns → more deaths. > We have a drug problem not a gun problem. That's an interesting non-sequitur, especially considering your statements above "of course we do [have more homicides], we have more guns". Guns and homicides are casually and statistically related. > banning something makes it go away So few words, so many mistakes: - most of these countries do not "ban" guns. They just highly regulate them. - no-one is trying to make guns "go away" or ban them entirely - not all things are the same. Drugs are not the same as guns - Australia, for example, changed their gun policy to be much more highly regulated and homicides dropped and mass shootings (previously ~1/year) disappeared
Consultant32452 9y ago
America doesn't actually have a greater tendency towards mass shootings. In fact, Norway has the most per capita deaths from mass shootings across the US and Europe. There US is 11th in the rankings for death rate and 12th in frequency. https://crimeresearch.org/2015/06/comparing-death-rates-from-mass-public-shootings-in-the-us-and-europe/ https://crimeresearch.org/2015/06/comparing-death-rates-from...
- notzorbo3 9y ago
  Those numbers are from 2009 through 2015. That's just cherry picking, because those years just happen to include Anders Breivik. I think its well established that the US is the market leader in mass shootings. Edit: Also, the president of Crime Prevention Research Center is John Lott, who's a known gun rights advocate. Your source does not seem to be very impartial.
  - Consultant32452 9y ago
    Anders Breivik did not commit mass murders in 10 counties. Edit: with regards to the US being the market leader, politifact rated a similar comment by Obama mostly false. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/jun/22/barack-obama/barack-obama-correct-mass-killings-dont-happen-oth/ http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/jun/...
    - mpweiher 9y ago
      What it rated false was the part where Obama said this type of thing doesn't happen (at all) in other countries. And they went on to say that a lot of the other countries that ranked highly were small countries that had a single attack. Statistics don't work well in that regime. And of course, here's what politifact themselves commented later: "June 22, 2015: We heard from several of you regarding Obama's use of the word "frequency," and that frequency could refer to the incidents of mass shootings, not deaths as we examined. Looking at Obama's claim by incident, the United States has a higher rate of incidents than Finland, Norway and Switzerland. We agree that there is no preferred comparison and each is valid, and we've changed some language in this article to reflect that. ... "
notzorbo3 9y ago
I agree with everything you said, however > The more likely cause is the legal structure around gun ownership in the United States. Gun ownership may be an enabler in mass shootings, but I don't believe it's the cause. Merely having a gun doesn't automatically make you a mass murderer. There are other underlying issues there. Not that that means the U.S. shouldn't do something about the legal structure around gun ownership. It's probably going to be much much harder to actually address the underlying cause.
- SlowRobotAhead 9y ago
  “We must do something even if it’s the wrong thing.” Sorry, that’s a fallacy I can’t get behind.
- graeme 9y ago
  Sorry, I should have said "cause of the difference" Obviously people don't go on sprees merely because they have a weapon. But they need gun access in order to commit a mass shooting. I do agree there might well be some additional cause. I think if you flooded Canada with guns you would see more mass shootings, but perhaps not as much. The US does have an overall higher crime rate, after all. And mass shootings do occur elsewhere, though the US is consistently high up per capita.

by graeme 9y ago

SlowRobotAhead 9y ago

>The more likely cause is the legal structure around gun ownership in the United States. And what are your qualifications on the topic? What do you actually know about the laws starting at the founding and hitting the popular milestones of 1934, 1968, 1986, 1994, 2008, and 2010? If someone doesn’t know why those years are significant but still has strong opinions on the topic... well, it’s just that the USA has been having this “conversation” for 200 years and these people are just new to it, being unaware of the facts is a bad position to start from.

wwalser 9y ago
This isn't an argument. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority See also reddit.com/r/iamverysmart
- SlowRobotAhead 9y ago
  Asking someone to be educated on a topic is not an argument from authority.
mpweiher 9y ago
The simple fact is that (a) the US has a 10x higher gun homicide rate and ~5x higher homicide rate than other comparable countries (b) the big difference between the US and these countries is vastly higher gun ownership in the US What could the relationship be between guns and deaths from guns? Nope, too hard.
- SlowRobotAhead 9y ago
  Saying the USA has more homicdes than other countries is a laughable statement. Of course we do, we have more guns. This is ENTIRELY to be expected. It doesn’t mean there is a problem. We have 10,000 homicdes with firearms in a country of 340,000,000 people and 400,000,000+ guns. More than 1/2 those homicides on minorities in cities that have stronger gun control. We have a drug problem not a gun problem. Remind me where drugs are legal, because if the argument that banning something makes it go away, drugs must be legal somewhere right?
  - mpweiher 9y ago
    > Saying the USA has more homicdes than other countries is a laughable statement. No. It is a trivially verifiable fact. Which you don't deny, so why is it "laughable". Is 3+4 = 7 also "laughable"? > Of course we do, we have more guns. This is ENTIRELY to be expected. Again, you seem to be violently agreeing with me: more guns → more deaths. > We have a drug problem not a gun problem. That's an interesting non-sequitur, especially considering your statements above "of course we do [have more homicides], we have more guns". Guns and homicides are casually and statistically related. > banning something makes it go away So few words, so many mistakes: - most of these countries do not "ban" guns. They just highly regulate them. - no-one is trying to make guns "go away" or ban them entirely - not all things are the same. Drugs are not the same as guns - Australia, for example, changed their gun policy to be much more highly regulated and homicides dropped and mass shootings (previously ~1/year) disappeared

Consultant32452 9y ago

America doesn't actually have a greater tendency towards mass shootings. In fact, Norway has the most per capita deaths from mass shootings across the US and Europe. There US is 11th in the rankings for death rate and 12th in frequency. https://crimeresearch.org/2015/06/comparing-death-rates-from-mass-public-shootings-in-the-us-and-europe/ https://crimeresearch.org/2015/06/comparing-death-rates-from...

notzorbo3 9y ago
Those numbers are from 2009 through 2015. That's just cherry picking, because those years just happen to include Anders Breivik. I think its well established that the US is the market leader in mass shootings. Edit: Also, the president of Crime Prevention Research Center is John Lott, who's a known gun rights advocate. Your source does not seem to be very impartial.
- Consultant32452 9y ago
  Anders Breivik did not commit mass murders in 10 counties. Edit: with regards to the US being the market leader, politifact rated a similar comment by Obama mostly false. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/jun/22/barack-obama/barack-obama-correct-mass-killings-dont-happen-oth/ http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/jun/...
  - mpweiher 9y ago
    What it rated false was the part where Obama said this type of thing doesn't happen (at all) in other countries. And they went on to say that a lot of the other countries that ranked highly were small countries that had a single attack. Statistics don't work well in that regime. And of course, here's what politifact themselves commented later: "June 22, 2015: We heard from several of you regarding Obama's use of the word "frequency," and that frequency could refer to the incidents of mass shootings, not deaths as we examined. Looking at Obama's claim by incident, the United States has a higher rate of incidents than Finland, Norway and Switzerland. We agree that there is no preferred comparison and each is valid, and we've changed some language in this article to reflect that. ... "

notzorbo3 9y ago

I agree with everything you said, however > The more likely cause is the legal structure around gun ownership in the United States. Gun ownership may be an enabler in mass shootings, but I don't believe it's the cause. Merely having a gun doesn't automatically make you a mass murderer. There are other underlying issues there. Not that that means the U.S. shouldn't do something about the legal structure around gun ownership. It's probably going to be much much harder to actually address the underlying cause.

SlowRobotAhead 9y ago
“We must do something even if it’s the wrong thing.” Sorry, that’s a fallacy I can’t get behind.
graeme 9y ago
Sorry, I should have said "cause of the difference" Obviously people don't go on sprees merely because they have a weapon. But they need gun access in order to commit a mass shooting. I do agree there might well be some additional cause. I think if you flooded Canada with guns you would see more mass shootings, but perhaps not as much. The US does have an overall higher crime rate, after all. And mass shootings do occur elsewhere, though the US is consistently high up per capita.