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The problem is that women in general do not feel comfortable in the male dominated ecosystem of tech startups. Could men be doing more to change that perception

The problem is that women in general do not feel comfortable in the male dominated ecosystem of tech startups. Could men be doing more to change that perception, I think so. So whenever somebody complains about the problem men like Mike Arrigton should not lash out but instead they should just list all the things they do to encourage more female participation. Then the people that complain about the problem can actually point at the proactive steps people are taking to address the problem and tell them these things are working and those things are not. It's silly to tell women to put up or shut up because it's a lot like telling somebody if you don't like the country then leave.

philwelch 16y ago
The problem is that women in general do not feel comfortable in the male dominated ecosystem of tech startups. You can replace "tech startups" with "med schools" or "law firms" or "MBA programs" or "factories" or "the military" or "science fiction fandom", but women have entered all of those male dominated ecosystems and are still there in far greater numbers than the tech industry. There has to be another factor.
- greenlblue 16y ago
  The military? I'd have to disagree with you on that one. The other ones I'm not sure about but I agree that women have entered those industries and it is because those industries started being proactive about recruiting women much earlier than the tech industry. Most things that are male dominated are simply because of historical accidents and nothing else. As soon as women are given the chance they tend to step up and outperform the men. Education is one example I can think of but I am sure there are many other instances.
  - philwelch 16y ago
    Various results on Google say the US military is 10-20% female, which is low but, I suspect, still above the tech industry. I'm not sure what you meant about "as soon as women are given the chance they outperform the men". Really? I wouldn't be surprised if women in male-dominated fields tend to perform well above average--they'd likely have to in order to stay in a male-dominated field--but you seemed to imply that, given equal opportunity, women would still outperform men in nearly every field.
- mkramlich 16y ago
  Yep I just got back from a 7-hour or so long wargaming session. Historically I'd say the participation has been about 99% male. There was actually 1 female there today, but the other 10+ people were males. This is extremely common. And I've never heard any participant in this hobby complain about it or point out oppression/repression/supression/conspiracy. The simple fact is that if more females wanted to play wargames, and got out there and played them, there would be more females playing, and thus they would not be able to say they feel dissuaded by the gender ratio. Arrington's point was: maybe this is the natural gender ratio (or very close to it, plus/minus some small percentage, however you could possibly deduce that), and the women in these cases just have to suck it up and deal. Just like a man would have to suck it up and deal if he wanted to work at a Great Clips or as a cosmetics salesman in a department store. Life is not evenly homogenous in every aspect, and there isn't anything inherently insidious about that. It just is. Heck I wish there was 1 Earth-like planet in every star system we've probed so far -- there isn't -- therefore perhaps we're discriminating against them. :)
  - rbanffy 16y ago
    > maybe this is the natural gender ratio Why nobody complains all mothers are female?
  - ZeroGravitas 16y ago
    There was a very eye opening post on metafilter recently when Blizzard suggested all World of Warcraft players should be forced to use their real name. A woman pointed out this was bad for the women (and girls) who play and listed off a shocking litany of the BS that any obviously female player needed to deal with. Maybe the gender ratio in your game would have been better if this thing was more widely acknowledged and therefore dealt with. edit for link: http://www.metafilter.com/93492/But-my-name-really-is-Deathblood-Blackaxe#3171416 http://www.metafilter.com/93492/But-my-name-really-is-Deathb... The whole thread is eye-opening, regarding female experiences in such arenas.
mkramlich 16y ago
Men probably would not feel comfortable working in female-dominated industries like hair salons, professional child day care, cosmetic sales or modern dance classes. But nobody cares about those cases for some reason.
- Psyonic 16y ago
  Agreed, for the most part. Although when it comes to child day care, there is another factor. Any job dealing with children puts a man at serious risk to any accusation of predatory behavior, and he'll have great difficulty defending himself. Not really worth the risk, even if you like children.
  - chc 16y ago
    Which is actual, demonstrable discrimination, so even more reason people might make a fuss.
- Dove 16y ago
  Amusing anecdote about the social dynamics in that situation: When I was in high school, the options for phys ed class were Weight Lifting and Aerobics. While the entry wasn't restricted by gender, all of the guys took Weight Lifting and most of the girls took Aerobics. Except for my friend. He took aerobics. I guess, initially, because I was in it. Ultimately, when his friends questioned him about it, he just said, "Meh. It's me and 25 girls. :)" And nobody bothered him about it after that.
3pt14159 16y ago
Although I disagree with greenlblue I'm pretty dismayed that (s)he has -4 votes. We shouldn't downvote people for stating their opinion, we should downvote people that don't contribute meaningfully to the discussion. The essence of greenlblue's post was that it would be better to list how we could help women rather than lashing out at them which could further alienate them. Which contributes the the conversation.

philwelch 16y ago

The problem is that women in general do not feel comfortable in the male dominated ecosystem of tech startups. You can replace "tech startups" with "med schools" or "law firms" or "MBA programs" or "factories" or "the military" or "science fiction fandom", but women have entered all of those male dominated ecosystems and are still there in far greater numbers than the tech industry. There has to be another factor.

greenlblue 16y ago
The military? I'd have to disagree with you on that one. The other ones I'm not sure about but I agree that women have entered those industries and it is because those industries started being proactive about recruiting women much earlier than the tech industry. Most things that are male dominated are simply because of historical accidents and nothing else. As soon as women are given the chance they tend to step up and outperform the men. Education is one example I can think of but I am sure there are many other instances.
- philwelch 16y ago
  Various results on Google say the US military is 10-20% female, which is low but, I suspect, still above the tech industry. I'm not sure what you meant about "as soon as women are given the chance they outperform the men". Really? I wouldn't be surprised if women in male-dominated fields tend to perform well above average--they'd likely have to in order to stay in a male-dominated field--but you seemed to imply that, given equal opportunity, women would still outperform men in nearly every field.
mkramlich 16y ago
Yep I just got back from a 7-hour or so long wargaming session. Historically I'd say the participation has been about 99% male. There was actually 1 female there today, but the other 10+ people were males. This is extremely common. And I've never heard any participant in this hobby complain about it or point out oppression/repression/supression/conspiracy. The simple fact is that if more females wanted to play wargames, and got out there and played them, there would be more females playing, and thus they would not be able to say they feel dissuaded by the gender ratio. Arrington's point was: maybe this is the natural gender ratio (or very close to it, plus/minus some small percentage, however you could possibly deduce that), and the women in these cases just have to suck it up and deal. Just like a man would have to suck it up and deal if he wanted to work at a Great Clips or as a cosmetics salesman in a department store. Life is not evenly homogenous in every aspect, and there isn't anything inherently insidious about that. It just is. Heck I wish there was 1 Earth-like planet in every star system we've probed so far -- there isn't -- therefore perhaps we're discriminating against them. :)
- rbanffy 16y ago
  > maybe this is the natural gender ratio Why nobody complains all mothers are female?
- ZeroGravitas 16y ago
  There was a very eye opening post on metafilter recently when Blizzard suggested all World of Warcraft players should be forced to use their real name. A woman pointed out this was bad for the women (and girls) who play and listed off a shocking litany of the BS that any obviously female player needed to deal with. Maybe the gender ratio in your game would have been better if this thing was more widely acknowledged and therefore dealt with. edit for link: http://www.metafilter.com/93492/But-my-name-really-is-Deathblood-Blackaxe#3171416 http://www.metafilter.com/93492/But-my-name-really-is-Deathb... The whole thread is eye-opening, regarding female experiences in such arenas.

mkramlich 16y ago

Men probably would not feel comfortable working in female-dominated industries like hair salons, professional child day care, cosmetic sales or modern dance classes. But nobody cares about those cases for some reason.

Psyonic 16y ago
Agreed, for the most part. Although when it comes to child day care, there is another factor. Any job dealing with children puts a man at serious risk to any accusation of predatory behavior, and he'll have great difficulty defending himself. Not really worth the risk, even if you like children.
- chc 16y ago
  Which is actual, demonstrable discrimination, so even more reason people might make a fuss.
Dove 16y ago
Amusing anecdote about the social dynamics in that situation: When I was in high school, the options for phys ed class were Weight Lifting and Aerobics. While the entry wasn't restricted by gender, all of the guys took Weight Lifting and most of the girls took Aerobics. Except for my friend. He took aerobics. I guess, initially, because I was in it. Ultimately, when his friends questioned him about it, he just said, "Meh. It's me and 25 girls. :)" And nobody bothered him about it after that.

3pt14159 16y ago

Although I disagree with greenlblue I'm pretty dismayed that (s)he has -4 votes. We shouldn't downvote people for stating their opinion, we should downvote people that don't contribute meaningfully to the discussion. The essence of greenlblue's post was that it would be better to list how we could help women rather than lashing out at them which could further alienate them. Which contributes the the conversation.