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I've been really wanting to get into the artisanal business world as an entrepreneur for a while now, it always seems so full of potential, and I've had good ex

I've been really wanting to get into the artisanal business world as an entrepreneur for a while now, it always seems so full of potential, and I've had good experience on the other side as well (having purchased a hand-made Atreus keyboard from @technomancy). And it fits inline with my philosophy of quality craftsmanship being very important, especially in this age of disposable low-quality goods and services. The hard part is finding something that is pretty low-risk to jump right into. That's part of what drew me to software, because there's almost no costs except what you'd already have at home (electricity bill, computer, rent). So it's just a matter of finding a software niche that's low-risk enough to bootstrap without VC if possible, and in a very small time limit. That's probably why I started making Mac apps 10 years ago and have kept doing so since. Mac apps used to be known for their fine craftsmanship and attention to detail as well as niche market.

bpicolo 9y ago
Seems like the best entrypoint is being a target customer. Make something you'd want. We're a bit spoiled in the software world. Startup cost is just non-existent. Most other businesses in history have at least a little bit of associated input capital. But if it's something you want anyway, it's worth a big of dough!
- _diyu 9y ago
  That's what I've always tried to do: make something I use. The most successful example of this is when I made an app that I use on a daily basis (https://github.com/sdegutis/AppGrid https://github.com/sdegutis/AppGrid) and have for several years straight. But it's so niche and small that nobody was willing to spend money on it, so I open sourced it. But I still think of it as a success because of how dependent I've become on this tool whenever I use a computer.
  - robterrell 9y ago
    People totally would have spent money for it. Lots of people struggle with tools for exactly this (I’m currently using Moom but just yesterday was wishing I had a keystroke to shrink a window but didn’t feel motivated enough to crack open my Hammerspoon configuration.) You should consider selling it on the Mac App Store in addition to it being open source. I think you’d be pleasantly surprised.
    - _sdegutis 9y ago
      I tried to do that, but Apple's rules restrict it because it uses Accessibility API (other similar apps were grandfathered in as they were on the store the rule was made). I also talked with Apple asking for an exception and they said no. So I tried selling it outside the store, but it's hard to market it without spending tons of $$.
      - kbenson 9y ago
        I/m not sure who downvoted you or why when you had the sentence about using Show HN, but I think that was a good idea. Of if not Show HN, Ask HN with the history and problems putting it in the appstore you outlined here, and asking people if they see a path to profitability. I think the second would be more useful and interesting. More people likely to look at it if a good discussion ensues, so you still get exposure, and useful advice from people here.
        _sdegutis 9y ago
        Thanks for the advice. I think I'll just put it up for sale, make a website for it, hook it up to Stripe or something, and post it as a Show HN. If I post it as an Ask HN, the mods may not allow a Show HN about the same topic any time soon afterwards, and reasonably so.
  - derwiki 9y ago
    Looks like a good utility. I've been using Spectacle to do this sort of thing. One small suggestion: add a .gif to your Github README showing off AppGrid in action.
    - _sdegutis 9y ago
      Good idea, just added one. Thanks.
  - an4rchy 9y ago
    I would have totally used this as I had the same issue as well and tried multiple different apps before settling in to BetterTouchTool to basically cover all the shortcuts and much more. I got in back when it was in Beta and still paid for it afterwards, because of continued support/development. The other thing to think about if you make this a paid app is the price point and utility. The one thing I dislike about a lot of Mac Apps like this, which provide some simple functionality, end up discontinuing development if there isn't much revenue or if the developer gets busy. So when the OS updates or something breaks or it doesn't work with a new model/hardware changes (Ex: Touchbar), there's no support or updates. (This is something that I factor in, looking at what other things the developer has done or supported in the past, based on the price point for the app ($1 vs $10 etc)
  - pdeuchler 9y ago
    First off, thank you so much for the work you did on mjolnir and related projects. Mjolnir completely changed how I used my mac and I used it intensively every day for years until I recently switched to hammerspoon. But, I didn't (and wouldn't) pay for it as a product. I did donate a coffee or two a while back, but I think in general window managers will always be a hard sell since all it takes is another bored programmer to open source a clone and you're kinda sunk. On top of that window managers have always been a free/FOSS thing, and changing that would probably require offering a feature that is so compelling people will overlook using closed source software/payware. Last, customization/scripting is a hard requirement for most window manager users, and without the source the vast majority of people will refuse to even invest the time to switch. While I personally hate the trend, the only way to monetize would probably offer some sort of cloud based feature that requires a subscription. I think if you did it honestly, offered real value, and provided a self-hosted option for sticks in the mud (that won't give you money, but will evangelize for you if you keep things libre) you could probably carve out a decent living. Either that or offering support to enterprises who want to use your tool, but that comes with its own devils. Anywho, just my two cents. Thanks again for all your hard work, I know it didn't pay off how you wanted financially but the tools you created have huge userbases that use your code every day hundreds of times a day. At the very least I'd hope having that on your resume has helped you find a good gig somewhere, and if not I'd suggest posting on here in a hiring thread or finding a good head hunter who can translate that experience into a well paying gig.
    - _diyu 9y ago
      Thanks, I appreciate it. And my thinking lines up with yours, that nobody will realistically pay for this app, which is why my plan is to add a buy-me-a-beer (donate) button into the app, and keep it open sourced, and submit it here next Tuesday, since I hear that's the best day for a Show HN.
- westoque 9y ago
  Exactly! The only exception is if you are building a disruptive idea like Uber or Airbnb that creates a market. It's not something anyone wants per se until they see that it can actually be a part of their lives. For ex, Travis Kalanick doesn't really drive an Uber right? But he created a market where people could actually start being their own taxis. But for people in the hobby of making small apps and tools (like myself) then making something I want, then selling it for $0.99, then having 1 million people buying it is already a lot of dough. Not to mention 1 million people worldwide is a drop in the bucket.
  - arh68 9y ago
    I thought Travis really did want to use the limo(s) himself. Wasn't shared access to high-end limos the original idea? And didn't the Airbnb founders put the literal Ur-airbed in their own house? I think you are right that there are exceptions to the rule, but those seem to follow the rule to some degree.
  - pjmorris 9y ago
    Circa 2008, I had a terrible commute, but a sometime-carpool that made it bearable. I dreamed of an app that would pair/triple up drivers and riders based on homes, destinations, and timing. Uber isn't quite that, but it's conceivable that someone could want such a thing.

bpicolo 9y ago

Seems like the best entrypoint is being a target customer. Make something you'd want. We're a bit spoiled in the software world. Startup cost is just non-existent. Most other businesses in history have at least a little bit of associated input capital. But if it's something you want anyway, it's worth a big of dough!

_diyu 9y ago
That's what I've always tried to do: make something I use. The most successful example of this is when I made an app that I use on a daily basis (https://github.com/sdegutis/AppGrid https://github.com/sdegutis/AppGrid) and have for several years straight. But it's so niche and small that nobody was willing to spend money on it, so I open sourced it. But I still think of it as a success because of how dependent I've become on this tool whenever I use a computer.
- robterrell 9y ago
  People totally would have spent money for it. Lots of people struggle with tools for exactly this (I’m currently using Moom but just yesterday was wishing I had a keystroke to shrink a window but didn’t feel motivated enough to crack open my Hammerspoon configuration.) You should consider selling it on the Mac App Store in addition to it being open source. I think you’d be pleasantly surprised.
  - _sdegutis 9y ago
    I tried to do that, but Apple's rules restrict it because it uses Accessibility API (other similar apps were grandfathered in as they were on the store the rule was made). I also talked with Apple asking for an exception and they said no. So I tried selling it outside the store, but it's hard to market it without spending tons of $$.
    - kbenson 9y ago
      I/m not sure who downvoted you or why when you had the sentence about using Show HN, but I think that was a good idea. Of if not Show HN, Ask HN with the history and problems putting it in the appstore you outlined here, and asking people if they see a path to profitability. I think the second would be more useful and interesting. More people likely to look at it if a good discussion ensues, so you still get exposure, and useful advice from people here.
      - _sdegutis 9y ago
        Thanks for the advice. I think I'll just put it up for sale, make a website for it, hook it up to Stripe or something, and post it as a Show HN. If I post it as an Ask HN, the mods may not allow a Show HN about the same topic any time soon afterwards, and reasonably so.
- derwiki 9y ago
  Looks like a good utility. I've been using Spectacle to do this sort of thing. One small suggestion: add a .gif to your Github README showing off AppGrid in action.
  - _sdegutis 9y ago
    Good idea, just added one. Thanks.
- an4rchy 9y ago
  I would have totally used this as I had the same issue as well and tried multiple different apps before settling in to BetterTouchTool to basically cover all the shortcuts and much more. I got in back when it was in Beta and still paid for it afterwards, because of continued support/development. The other thing to think about if you make this a paid app is the price point and utility. The one thing I dislike about a lot of Mac Apps like this, which provide some simple functionality, end up discontinuing development if there isn't much revenue or if the developer gets busy. So when the OS updates or something breaks or it doesn't work with a new model/hardware changes (Ex: Touchbar), there's no support or updates. (This is something that I factor in, looking at what other things the developer has done or supported in the past, based on the price point for the app ($1 vs $10 etc)
- pdeuchler 9y ago
  First off, thank you so much for the work you did on mjolnir and related projects. Mjolnir completely changed how I used my mac and I used it intensively every day for years until I recently switched to hammerspoon. But, I didn't (and wouldn't) pay for it as a product. I did donate a coffee or two a while back, but I think in general window managers will always be a hard sell since all it takes is another bored programmer to open source a clone and you're kinda sunk. On top of that window managers have always been a free/FOSS thing, and changing that would probably require offering a feature that is so compelling people will overlook using closed source software/payware. Last, customization/scripting is a hard requirement for most window manager users, and without the source the vast majority of people will refuse to even invest the time to switch. While I personally hate the trend, the only way to monetize would probably offer some sort of cloud based feature that requires a subscription. I think if you did it honestly, offered real value, and provided a self-hosted option for sticks in the mud (that won't give you money, but will evangelize for you if you keep things libre) you could probably carve out a decent living. Either that or offering support to enterprises who want to use your tool, but that comes with its own devils. Anywho, just my two cents. Thanks again for all your hard work, I know it didn't pay off how you wanted financially but the tools you created have huge userbases that use your code every day hundreds of times a day. At the very least I'd hope having that on your resume has helped you find a good gig somewhere, and if not I'd suggest posting on here in a hiring thread or finding a good head hunter who can translate that experience into a well paying gig.
  - _diyu 9y ago
    Thanks, I appreciate it. And my thinking lines up with yours, that nobody will realistically pay for this app, which is why my plan is to add a buy-me-a-beer (donate) button into the app, and keep it open sourced, and submit it here next Tuesday, since I hear that's the best day for a Show HN.
westoque 9y ago
Exactly! The only exception is if you are building a disruptive idea like Uber or Airbnb that creates a market. It's not something anyone wants per se until they see that it can actually be a part of their lives. For ex, Travis Kalanick doesn't really drive an Uber right? But he created a market where people could actually start being their own taxis. But for people in the hobby of making small apps and tools (like myself) then making something I want, then selling it for $0.99, then having 1 million people buying it is already a lot of dough. Not to mention 1 million people worldwide is a drop in the bucket.
- arh68 9y ago
  I thought Travis really did want to use the limo(s) himself. Wasn't shared access to high-end limos the original idea? And didn't the Airbnb founders put the literal Ur-airbed in their own house? I think you are right that there are exceptions to the rule, but those seem to follow the rule to some degree.
- pjmorris 9y ago
  Circa 2008, I had a terrible commute, but a sometime-carpool that made it bearable. I dreamed of an app that would pair/triple up drivers and riders based on homes, destinations, and timing. Uber isn't quite that, but it's conceivable that someone could want such a thing.